Is it normal to ask for a deposit & sign a contract before testing engine?

[struth]

I'm recently back into sailing and actively looking for a newish AWB. Almost did a deal with a Hamble broker but it fell apart at the end. The issue that precipitated the exit was a written request by the broker for me to pay a deposit and sign a contract before running the engine ashore? There was no FSH or any details (receipts, invoices) from the vendor or broker so I really wanted to be sure about the state of the engine. I have, in times gone by, run engines after servicing etc, ashore with a decent hosepipe up the proverbial, with absolutely no problems at all. Why so different with this brokerage? Any suggestions would be welcome as I don't really want to come across this situation again as I look for another boat.

 

[Tranona]

I'm recently back into sailing and actively looking for a newish AWB. Almost did a deal with a Hamble broker but it fell apart at the end. The issue that precipitated the exit was a written request by the broker for me to pay a deposit and sign a contract before running the engine ashore? There was no FSH or any details (receipts, invoices) from the vendor or broker so I really wanted to be sure about the state of the engine. I have, in times gone by, run engines after servicing etc, ashore with a decent hosepipe up the proverbial, with absolutely no problems at all. Why so different with this brokerage? Any suggestions would be welcome as I don't really want to come across this situation again as I look for another boat.

Perfectly reasonable. The broker does not own the boat. It is still the private property of the vendor. The broker is only protecting his client's interests in case anything goes wrong when you are playing with his property. You make an offer based on what you see, sign a contract that shows your commitment to buy. The contract is subject to survey and satisfactory trials and it is at that point you can carry out checks to ensure it is as described. However this may still not permit you to run the engine on shore because of restrictions from the boatyard. You will also need to indemnify the owner of the boat against any damage you may cause. That is one of the purposes of the deposit.

 

[Twister_Ken]

What Tranona said, plus engines aren't designed to be run ashore. What happens if a third party inadvertently turns the hose off, or parks a car on it? What happens if the engine vibration shakes out the chocks on the shores?

 

[robmcg]

What Tranona said, plus engines aren't designed to be run ashore. What happens if a third party inadvertently turns the hose off, or parks a car on it? What happens if the engine vibration shakes out the chocks on the shores?

I agree. That's why you pay a deposit.

 

[jwilson]

I'm recently back into sailing and actively looking for a newish AWB. Almost did a deal with a Hamble broker but it fell apart at the end. The issue that precipitated the exit was a written request by the broker for me to pay a deposit and sign a contract before running the engine ashore? There was no FSH or any details (receipts, invoices) from the vendor or broker so I really wanted to be sure about the state of the engine. I have, in times gone by, run engines after servicing etc, ashore with a decent hosepipe up the proverbial, with absolutely no problems at all. Why so different with this brokerage? Any suggestions would be welcome as I don't really want to come across this situation again as I look for another boat.

For the broker there is far too much chance of something going expensively wrong if you just let a potential buyer stick a hosepipe in the inlet and start the engine. You could overpressurise the raw water system and get water into the cylinders via the exhaust elbow. Also, if the engine is winterised, will the buyer re-winterise it.

If the owner is around and agreeable, fair enough to ask if he can demonstrate the engine running. As a broker, I will usually if asked run an engine for a potential buyer if the boat is afloat and I know it's not winterised. With a boat ashore - absolutely not.

With a boat ashore the normal procedure is to agree a price subject to survey, and as a part of that survey have an (insured professional) engineer run up the engine. He will not usually just stick a hose in the inlet, but set up a bucket and pipe system. Modern boat, modern yacht engine, usually the engine is the least of your worries unless engine hours are truly enormous (8-10,000+) or ridiculously low for the age, or truly looks deeply unloved.

 

[richardabeattie]

The trouble with this forum is that you don't always get the answer you want to hear! But what is unique about the responses in this case is that they all agree. And, weirdly, I agree too.
.

 

[Alpha22]

The same, but different......

An inland broker that I have used will not start engines or conduct river trials on a boat until price is agreed and deposit taken. Although he does also offer 100% refund and the option to back out for ANY reason, even pre-survey. I suspect this is to prevent fender kickers wasting their time.
It works well for them, they have a good turnover of boats and a good reputation.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'm recently back into sailing and actively looking for a newish AWB. Almost did a deal with a Hamble broker but it fell apart at the end. The issue that precipitated the exit was a written request by the broker for me to pay a deposit and sign a contract before running the engine ashore? There was no FSH or any details (receipts, invoices) from the vendor or broker so I really wanted to be sure about the state of the engine. I have, in times gone by, run engines after servicing etc, ashore with a decent hosepipe up the proverbial, with absolutely no problems at all. Why so different with this brokerage? Any suggestions would be welcome as I don't really want to come across this situation again as I look for another boat.

When brokers are involved you practically have to sign a contract and pay a deposit before you can even look at the boat. Nobody knows why. If the broker or the owner is not prepared to run the engine for you (too many risks in doing it yourself, as other have noted) then ask yourself why they are so reluctant. If you are keen on the boat you could always make an offer based on an assumed need to replace the engine, and tell the broker so.

Can you imagine how it would work when buying a car?

Customer: I'm interested in the Golf on your forecourt
Dealer: Certainly sir. Have you had a look at it?
Customer: Yes, through the windows, but I'd like to have a look inside and under the bonnet
Dealer: Fine, but first you have to make me an offer for it, sign a contract and pay a deposit
Customer: What?
Dealer: That's how we do it. You make an offer based on what it would worth if the bits you can't see are in the condition you think they're in, then if you find a provblem we'll consider reducing the price, maybe, or letting you pull out of the deal, perhaps.
Customer: And a test drive?
Dealer: Of course not. You can read the reviews online. Now, are you going to sign and pay or not?

 

[prv]

Can you imagine how it would work when buying a car?

The thing is, we don't have second-hand-car brokers who sell cars that actually belong to other people.

Pete

 

[Medskipper]

If the boat is in the water I see no reason why the engine can't be started, if it were my boat I was trying to sell I would want to be actively involved and I would make certain you saw and heard the engine! And anything else.
This has just happened to me! I contacted a broker on a boat I had interest in. It was over a hundred and fifty miles from where I live so I told the broker I wanted to hear the engines run if I am to make the journey. He told me not unless you put down a deposit and sign his agreement! I said I've got a round trip of over three hundred miles if that doesn't tell you I'm interested I don't know what does. He said sorry but that's our rule, I said well my rule is I don't sign or pay money until I know what I'm looking at and put the phone down! He's a sales man and he lost the sale!
Different story when I visited the Netherlands, they couldn't do enough for me, guess what happened? I bought it!
ive been a salesman all life and the level of good service and salesmanship in this country is dreadful, they get what they deserve, no sale! Of course there are a few exceptions.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The thing is, we don't have second-hand-car brokers who sell cars that actually belong to other people.

http://www.british-car-auctions.co.uk/

http://www.ukcarbroker.co.uk/Used-Cars

Owner: Hello, I'd like you to sell my car for me
Broker: Certainly sir. We'll advertise it, take car of all the paperwork and make sure that nobody is allowed to look at it closely without agreeing to buy it first.

Please note that I am not knocking brokers per se, and I am sure the good ones do a useful job. However, I think the boating world has got to the stage of accepting some very, very bizarre notions as the norm. How would you feel if you were thinking of buying a boat from a private seller, asked him to start the engine and were told "not until you sign a binding contract and pay a deposit".

 

[prv]

The thing is, we don't have second-hand-car brokers who sell cars that actually belong to other people.

http://www.british-car-auctions.co.uk/

Ah hah!

My dad bought a number of cars from them over the years, and took various less-confident friends along to buy theirs as well.

D'you know what, though?

You don't get to test-drive the cars with them either. Quick look in the viewing session, then on to the auction based on what you saw. And you don't get to call in a surveyor and back out again if he finds a problem, either.

Pete

 

[jwilson]

To start a car you check it's not in gear and turn the key. Then when you find the battery flat you get the dealer to bring a jump-starter, and turn the key. That's it. And usually the dealer owns the car, and has insurance that covers anyone using it.

To start a boat there are all sorts of options, depending on where it is (in water or out), whether the engine has been winterised (as it should be if laid up), and on some older boats and engines there are all sorts of sometimes weird and wonderful procedures - try an old Sabb diesel - as well as various battery switches and seacock arrangements that vary from boat to boat. Even trying to turning an engine off at the starter key can blow alternator diodes on some boats. Yet on a few others it's the way you do it.

Get something wrong and the broker or buyer can do damage to a boat they do not own .....

 

[JumbleDuck]

You don't get to test-drive the cars with them either. Quick look in the viewing session, then on to the auction based on what you saw. And you don't get to call in a surveyor and back out again if he finds a problem, either.

BCA Assured is an independent multi-point vehicle check carried out by the AA at BCA.
The AA Inspectors make over 30 checks on the vehicle to make sure as a buyer you have accurate information and complete transparency of the mechanical condition of the vehicle. BCA Assured covers everything from the condition of the tyres, to engine running, to a VOSPA approved brake check.
Furthermore, if you purchase a vehicle from us with a BCA Assured report, you have 48 hours or 500 miles (whichever comes first) to contact us should you find something that has been misreported.
Includes over 30 different checks across engine bay, engine running, tyre tread depth, interior/dashboard and dynamic operation
Carried out by Qualified AA Inspectors
Entitles you to claim against these specific checks if the vehicle is not as reported
Means you can buy with complete confidence

Even without that survey, the auctioneer gives legally binding assurances about the condition of the car, unless it's a dog being "sold as seen". Not only do boat brokers not do that; they actively (try to) prevent you finding out about the condition of what you're buying before you sign. Nobody at BCA minds if you take a qualified mechanic along with you to look at the cars ...

 

[Tranona]

When brokers are involved you practically have to sign a contract and pay a deposit before you can even look at the boat. Nobody knows why. If the broker or the owner is not prepared to run the engine for you (too many risks in doing it yourself, as other have noted) then ask yourself why they are so reluctant. If you are keen on the boat you could always make an offer based on an assumed need to replace the engine, and tell the broker so.

It really does not work like that. No different from buying a house - do you want to try and live in it before you make an offer?

The contract is subject to survey and trials and if the engine turns out not to be satisfactory the buyer can withdraw or renegotiate the price. What are you going to learn anyway from running an engine on dry land other than it starts? As jwilson says in a newish boat the chance of the engine being defective are pretty low, so having the sale subject to satisfactory trials is not a big risk.

A dealer is in a very different situation from a broker. He owns the car (or boat) he is selling. His price includes a profit margin to cover his cost of providing a test run, risking the damage etc. This simply does not apply to a privately owned boat (or car). If the owner wants to take the risk thats fine, but you won't find many owners willing to do that unless they have a commitment from the buyer in some form or other - which brings one back to the original question. Yes it is reasonable for an agent to protect his principal's interests, and asking for a commitment and a monetary deposit is the way it is done. He will of course know that this approach may deter some, but unlikely to deter a real buyer.

 

[Tranona]

BCA Assured is an independent multi-point vehicle check carried out by the AA at BCA.
The AA Inspectors make over 30 checks on the vehicle to make sure as a buyer you have accurate information and complete transparency of the mechanical condition of the vehicle. BCA Assured covers everything from the condition of the tyres, to engine running, to a VOSPA approved brake check.
Furthermore, if you purchase a vehicle from us with a BCA Assured report, you have 48 hours or 500 miles (whichever comes first) to contact us should you find something that has been misreported.
Includes over 30 different checks across engine bay, engine running, tyre tread depth, interior/dashboard and dynamic operation
Carried out by Qualified AA Inspectors
Entitles you to claim against these specific checks if the vehicle is not as reported
Means you can buy with complete confidence

Even without that survey, the auctioneer gives legally binding assurances about the condition of the car, unless it's a dog being "sold as seen". Not only do boat brokers not do that; they actively (try to) prevent you finding out about the condition of what you're buying before you sign. Nobody at BCA minds if you take a qualified mechanic along with you to look at the cars ...

That is just not relevant to private boat sales - or indeed any contract between two individuals. It is not a consumer transaction. The auction house you describe is setting out the terms of its sale contract and providing the (very limited) warranty. It is doing that because the contract is complete when the hammer falls, so it is setting out the terms for subsequent rejection - but the buyer has already paid. The contract for sale of a boat puts the onus on the buyer to determine if it is satisfactory for his requirements and gives him the opportunity to reject or renegotiate before he parts with his money if he finds it is not as described.

Which would you rather do. Pay up front in an auction with the possibility of seeking redress afterwards under very specific conditions, or carry out your inspection first and only pay if it passes? Paying the deposit and signing the contract ensures the seller cannot sell to anybody else while you are carrying out your checks.

 

[struth]

The trouble with this forum is that you don't always get the answer you want to hear! But what is unique about the responses in this case is that they all agree. And, weirdly, I agree too.
.

I'll 'fess up; you're not wrong, but why didn't the broker take the time to explain the rationale to me? He wasn't in attendance when I looked at the boat (twice) and took some persuading to connect power so lights, navigation, etc could be checked. He was, he said, busy dealing with potential sales worth much more than this one...
In any event I would never have asked for an on shore engine run unless the owner had specifically agreed to it and that there was a yard engineer on hand to ensure all went smoothly re hose pipe, water tank stuff and so on. And if modern engines are so good, surely it wouldn't have mattered too much if there was was a, er, slight hiccup?

 

[JumbleDuck]

It really does not work like that. No different from buying a house - do you want to try and live in it before you make an offer?

In Scotland we get surveys before making offers, and the offer reflects the surveyor's comments. That's why house buying is a nice, easy process here. Dahn sarf I believe you make the offer, then get the survey, then haggle, argue, gazump and so on and the results is a real mess. In both cases the sales are normally handled by brokers, and I find it hard to see why the English model has been chosen for boats.

The contract is subject to survey and trials and if the engine turns out not to be satisfactory the buyer can withdraw or renegotiate the price. What are you going to learn anyway from running an engine on dry land other than it starts?

That's perhaps not a wholly peculiar thing to want to know? I agree that there are separate issues ashore, but if you were looking over a boat afloat, would you not perhaps ask if you could hear the engine running, see the chartplotter switched on and so on? Would you not find it a little off-putting if the owner or broker then said "No way, until you've agreed to buy".

Yes it is reasonable for an agent to protect his principal's interests, and asking for a commitment and a monetary deposit is the way it is done. He will of course know that this approach may deter some, but unlikely to deter a real buyer.

Where a "real buyer" is defined as "one who is not deterred" ...

I bought my current boat through a broker, which was fine, but it really does involve a most peculiar number of hoops to jump through, none of which would occur to a private seller.

 

[Tranona]

That's perhaps not a wholly peculiar thing to want to know? I agree that there are separate issues ashore, but if you were looking over a boat afloat, would you not perhaps ask if you could hear the engine running, see the chartplotter switched on and so on? Would you not find it a little off-putting if the owner or broker then said "No way, until you've agreed to buy".



Where a "real buyer" is defined as "one who is not deterred" ...

I bought my current boat through a broker, which was fine, but it really does involve a most peculiar number of hoops to jump through, none of which would occur to a private seller.

You have to be pragmatic about these things. Starting an engine, or turning on the electrics on a boat in commission is different from running it laid up ashore and the risks minimal. Don't think that would be a problem for most people. It is about assessing the risk and running an engine ashore for a casual enquirer is risky. However, he ceases to be a casual enquirer once he has signed a contract and different rules apply as the buyer becomes responsible for any costs incurred.

A "real buyer" is only real when he makes an offer, it is accepted and a contract signed. Until then, even if he has come from the moon to view, he is just another enquiry. This is the same for private buyers or brokers. The difference in the way a broker handles enquiries reflects his experience of how best to handle enquiries. A private seller does not necessarily have that experience and is liable to allow much more freedom and often learn the hard way about getting p*****d about by so-called buyers. Off course some strike lucky and find buyers who are perfect, and so do brokers - rarely!

 

[Crabman]

Tranona are you a yacht surveyor?