is it legal ?

[peterk]

hi,
I know many of you Brits don't consider yourselves Europeans,
- hear me out anyway!
I have never sailed in Europe with any of my 6 boats.
Is it LEGAL for a Brit - or any European Union citizen -
to fly the European Union flag,
dark blue with a circle of 12 Golden Stars in it
(fine looking flag!)
INSTEAD of
the national ensign
when cruising to a foreign country?

If it is legal, theoretically then
you wouldn't need to fly anything from your spreaders
(unless you insisted)
when sailing to another EU country...

I am an Austrian - on my passport it says on the outside,
(above Austria)
'European Union'.
German passports the same.
yours?

peter, www.juprowa.com/kittel

 

[ccscott49]

It is not legal for a british ship/boat to fly/wear a european ensign? (no such animal) abroad or anywhere else. What the rest of europe does is no concern of mine. You I am sure have your own regualtions, try asking somebody in your own ministries, I'm sure they will tell you. By the way we are in europe and I consider myself a British/European. IMHO.

 

[dickh]

You should fly your national ensign/flag on the stern as usual; Dutch, Belgian and French boats sometimes fly the EU flag as a courtesy flag from the (starboard?)crosstrees & French boats often fly their regional flag as well from the crosstrees. In UK the ensign is the only flag flown at the stern and when sailing to another EU country or other foreign country. Check with your own authorities for Austrian flagged boats.

dickh
I'd rather be sailing...

 

[ccscott49]

Come on! I've seen dutch boats in Moroco with this EU abomination on their sterns, basically they don't give a stuff! Whats all this EU flag courtesy stuff, you should fly the countrys' official courtesy flag at the starboard crosstrees, above any other flag and should not really have any other flag on the same halyard. Try it, fly a EU flag instead of a portugese courtesy flag, I won't pay your fine for you and it's plain disrespectful. Lets just do things right and at least attempt to set some standards, please.

 

[vyv_cox]

Without getting sidetracked into whether British people consider themselves to be Europeans (I'm Welsh and have lived in The Netherlands for the past 6 years, if that helps!). The so-called European ensign in its British version is illegal and has been confiscated by British embassy officials in a couple of quite well-publicised cases. The reason for this is that the flag is effectively a defaced blue ensign, which can only be worn by vessels that fall within a fairly limited category, e.g certain yacht clubs. The "daisy chain" is not one of the approved defacements. So it could be illegal on two counts, no entitlement to wear the blue and unauthorised defacement.

The courtesy flag is exactly what it says. Wearing a torn or dirty courtesy flag, or one made up on a piece of polythene with crayons (I'm not joking) would be considered discourteous by most people. Similarly, attempts to save a bit of cash by adopting a one-for-all ensign might be seen as discourteous (it would by me).

Outside Europe, I have read of yachtsmen being arrested for not showing correct, clean and tidy courtesy flags.

 

[charles_reed]

Short answer NO.

Under international law a ship has to fly the flag of country of registration - anything else leaves the master open to criminal action by the local and national authorities.
Unregistered boats fall into a convenient "black hole" and are at the mercy and whim of local officialdom - as owners have discovered to their regret and cost.

In the Olhao port authority area, during 2000, a number of foreign boats were fined on the spot for breach of international regs, including wrong ensign, lack of day-marks, overloading tenders etc.

It is probable that the stigma of prosecuting a good "European" might mitigate action by the authorities in the more enthusiastic member states but I wouldn't like to bet on it.

 

[VMALLOWS]

It's sad to see an increasing number of foreign (mainly French) boats flying the Union Flag at the crosstrees in the Solent. You can also usually spot one or two (presumably British) flying it as their ensign on a weekend! Of course, in the UK, we're tollerant. (should that be one l or two?...never been good with double ll's!)

 

[salvex]

Now I'm confused!
I'm a Brit, live in Barbados and have just bought a boat which is US registered in the Virgin Islands. It is currently moored in Puerto Rico (which isn't really part of the States anyway) - HELP!

Neil Ferris

 

[peterk]

familiar!

hi Neil,
I bought 'Tehani' in Mexico - had to change her US documentation
( for US citizens only)
to California Registration.
Being an Austrian I have the the choice between flying Red-White-Red
and the Stars and Stripes - as long as the boat
is OUTSIDE
the US.
I used the Austrian Flag all around the world,
mainly for the better reception you get
with it in Latin America and elsewhere - Indonesia comes to mind.
With the exception of Peru
where I met a stickler port captain
there was never any problem.

here is the kicker:
If I enter the US on 'Tehani'
as the owner
I HAVE to fly the flag of my passport's nationality
i.e. the Austrian one.

Thus in effect making US - built
and California registered 'Tehani'
a foreign vessel.

how about that, Charles?

...peter, www.juprowa.com/kittel

 

[charles_reed]

Re: familiar!

Take it to the International Court at the Hague - I suspect the Americans are in the wrong.
You'll still need to fly the S&S on the high seas.

I'm sure you'll find lots of other "local modifications" of International Law, that's how the enforcers justify their existence.

But then as the only superpower, why shouldn't the Americans make the rules up to suit themselves (viz the International War Crimes Tribunal).

 

[Guest]

Go ahead and fly it

It depends on the laws of the country you are visiting. Under English law it is not illegal to fly the EU daisy chain.

There are two exceptions to that in England: first, as Vyv Cox mentions, you can't fly it if it also has the Union Jack printed on it - it has become an illegally faced blue ensign. Second, you must fly your national ensign (ie. not the EU flag) when entering a foreign port or when challenged by one of HM ships.

 

[LadyInBed]

Would an EU flag with a Union flag in the middle of the circle of stars still be considered to be a defaced Blue Ensign?
(Flown from the X trees)
Or for that matter, with the Union flag say, in one of the bottom corners?

 

[vyv_cox]

Please don't ask me questions about flag etiquette! I'm far from being an authority on this subject. Does such a flag exist? Doesn't sound very likely.

 

[firstspirit]

I,m ying I,m yang, I,m black & white,
I,m green, I,m pink, I,m posh
I,m wishy washy, so sure a thing I have not got the dosh.
I,m Welsh, I,m British, I,m European well that,s all-right I say,
I,m straight, I,m bent, well perhaps I,m not, perhaps I may be gay.
The world is small, no it's big, my mind is going round,
I like to fly, I like to sail, but feet must touch the ground.

My advice is this .
Shove your flag up the pole and challenge anyone who thinks you shouldn,t. And always keep smiling.

 

[johnsomerhausen]

Some thirty years ago, when I was cruising on the South Coast, I came across a few boats wearing the "Welsh Dragon" ensign. Never saw any official objecting to that... so I assumed it was legal. The bargemen in the "Rhine traffic" (the countries parties to the "Rhine Agreement" -Germany, Austria, France Belgim, the Netherlands and maybe a few others) used to carry a composite courtesy flag made of the flags of all these countries. It was and still is an acdcepted practice.
Being a European resident in the USA, I wear the US ensign at the steren of my sloop and had the European Union flag at the crosstrees. In Horta, some offical objectee to that, so I told him that since I was weaaring the flag of a federeation (the US), I was using the flag of another federation (the EU) as a courtesy flag. Since he inissited that I put the Portuguese courtesy flag, I said "in that case, I'm going to put the flag of the state where my boat is registered" and I changed the US ensign for the flag of the state of New York. It left him speechless...
john

 

[Guest]

It's an unauthorised flag incorporating the Union Jack, therefore illegal.

 

[MedMan]

A few years ago I had some corespondence with Our Lords of the Admiralty on this subject. Briefly, I applied for a Warrant for members of a proposed new club (The British European Sailing Club) to fly a blue ensign defaced by the European Stars in the fly. This, it seemed to me, was a simple way to legalise the flying of a Euro/Union flag combination as an ensign which would not require new legislation as the mechanism to grant Warrants for defaced blue ensigns already exists.

The initial answer was no based upon a decision taken by the Admiralty a considerable time ago not to grant any new requests for defaced ensigns. I appealed against this and asked for the decision to be reviewed. After a lengthy delay the matter was placed before the Admiralty Board. However, it was again turned down as the Board did not wish to re-open the gates to a flood of further applications for defaced ensigns.

P.S. Interestingly, the use of 'European Blue' rather than 'Navy Blue' was not a problem, nor was the proportions of the flag (A Euro flag is squarer than our traditional ensigns)

 

[Budgie]

Surely flags/ensigns etc. are a an anachronism in this day and age. What purpose do they now serve?

 

[numenius]

Shameful

Thank goodness they refused you - defaced is the correct term. Maybe the admiralty also recalled losing many thousands of men to ensure that we did NOT have to deface our flags with another european symbol not so long ago. What an insult to to wish deface a UK flag with the Euro symbol. The suggestion is an obscenity. Shame on you.
And no.. I'm not "anti european" (whatever that actually means), but rather consider Churchill's view on the matter sensible:

"We have our own dream and our own task.
We are with Europe, but not of it.
We are linked but not combined.
We are interested and associated but not absorbed."
Sir Winston Churchill

 

[MedMan]

Re: Shameful

Each to our own - that is what makes life so interesting. I see no shame in turning my back on centuries of conflict in the belief that amity is preferable to adversity. To me a Euro Flag carrying the Union Flag in the upper canton says it all: I am European but still British. If you wish to remain more insular that is fine by me, but it does seem a shame that you feel the necessity to be quite so condemnatory about those who feel otherwise.