Is a logbook a legal requirement for a Small Commercial Vessel

[jibtop]

I was selling a vessel with a business in Italy in 2016 and asked for recommendations for a solicitor to draw up a contract as there were several unusual conditions. One of which was performance related payments. The firm turned out to be fairly useless. I must say I am not criticizing the the person who made the recommendation as he had used them for a different matter. One of the conditions was to supply a copy of the logbook and I had expected a full copy with weather conditions, sea state etc, so that I could check when they did or did not sail. When I asked for this all I received were scribbled notes with the number of pax carried. Completely meaningless. Looking in the contract however it states " A copy of the Vessel's logbook covering the year of 2016 accurately detailing the numbers of passengers carried on board the Vessel" So if there is no legal requirement for a full logbook, do you think that the scribbled notes with numbers of pax covers this? Many thanks.

 

[lpdsn]

Are you saying that you agreed a contractual requirement with the purchaser of your boat and he hasn't met that requirement? Surely that is the issue. Legal doesn't come into it. What's the complaint about the solicitor?

However I did find your post difficult to decipher and am still not sure I understand it correctly, so maybe the purchaser is in the same boat.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Are you saying that you agreed a contractual requirement with the purchaser of your boat and he hasn't met that requirement? Surely that is the issue. Legal doesn't come into it. What's the complaint about the solicitor?

However I did find your post difficult to decipher and am still not sure I understand it correctly, so maybe the purchaser is in the same boat.

Yes appears to be selling and buying quite confusing.

 

[Skylark]

Yes appears to be selling and buying quite confusing.

Also note sure if the OP is referencing UK or Italian coding/legislation, either?

 

[NormanS]

Presumably the OP is acting as an agent selling a boat on behalf of a client.

 

[dunedin]

Agree a very confusing post.
My interpretation was that the OP was selling a boat with associated ferry/trip/training business. And part of the sale price would depend on business performance in the initial year(s).
I guess that the trading in 2016 was lower than he hoped, therefore the performance payment didn’t happen or was also less than the OP hoped for. And hence he is wondering if they took more passengers than they admitted to, or failed to go out as often as he felt they should.

Either way, will have major dificulty in pursuing a complex case such as this in a foreign legal system, formal log book or not. Suspect this may need to be written off to experience.

 

[jibtop]

I was selling the boat to someone who had insisted that because he could not afford the total price an amount ( 30k ) would be kept back and only paid if the turnover reached a certain amount. I expected to receive a full standard logbook so that I could check weather ,sea conditions. But just received these scribbled notes with number of pax carried.

What I am asking is that because this " A copy of the Vessel's logbook covering the year of 2016 accurately detailing the numbers of passengers carried on board the Vessel" is written in the contract and it just states that it should detail the number of passengers and if a complete logbook is not a legal requirement then has the purchaser fulfilled the contract.

The solicitors have been very unhelpful and then charged me £800 for writing a letter to the purchaser to supply copies of logbook for the months that he had not supplied already after telling me that he should be liable for costs . Again he just supplied scribbled notes no logbook.
The vessel is UK coded and the contract was under UK law

 

[jibtop]

Agree a very confusing post.
My interpretation was that the OP was selling a boat with associated ferry/trip/training business. And part of the sale price would depend on business performance in the initial year(s).
I guess that the trading in 2016 was lower than he hoped, therefore the performance payment didn’t happen or was also less than the OP hoped for. And hence he is wondering if they took more passengers than they admitted to, or failed to go out as often as he felt they should.

Either way, will have major dificulty in pursuing a complex case such as this in a foreign legal system, formal log book or not. Suspect this may need to be written off to experience.

Thanks, you are quite right. The boat was taking people on day trips, a business I had started from scratch and built up over 12 yrs. The purchasers claimed not to have reached the target, but it would not have been in their interest to do so. One way of checking might have been to have the logbook. It would not be a foreign legal system, it was under uk law and the vessel is uk registered and coded.

 

[Skylark]

If you started the business from scratch, presumably you had the vessel coded. I suggest that you take a look at MCA harmonised code, MGN 280 for guidance.

Quoted from Commercial Regulations for small vessels by Simon Jinks:-

The Merchant Shipping (Official Log Book) Regulation 1981 makes it a requirement for all UK commercial vessels (except ships less than 25gt) to carry and keep an official logbook.

Vessels under 25gt are well advised to carry and complete a logbook as it is a record of the passage and events.

 

[[70521]]

May I suggest that the original poster contact the equivalent of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency in Italy and get advice from official sources.

 

[alant]

If you started the business from scratch, presumably you had the vessel coded. I suggest that you take a look at MCA harmonised code, MGN 280 for guidance.

Quoted from Commercial Regulations for small vessels by Simon Jinks:-

The Merchant Shipping (Official Log Book) Regulation 1981 makes it a requirement for all UK commercial vessels (except ships less than 25gt) to carry and keep an official logbook.

Vessels under 25gt are well advised to carry and complete a logbook as it is a record of the passage and events.

I skippered several commercial passenger boats & never filled in a logbook.
All passengers were counted & only in the case of a ferry in Southampton Water, was I obliged to report numbers to VTS.

 

[jibtop]

If you started the business from scratch, presumably you had the vessel coded. I suggest that you take a look at MCA harmonised code, MGN 280 for guidance.

Quoted from Commercial Regulations for small vessels by Simon Jinks:-

The Merchant Shipping (Official Log Book) Regulation 1981 makes it a requirement for all UK commercial vessels (except ships less than 25gt) to carry and keep an official logbook.

Vessels under 25gt are well advised to carry and complete a logbook as it is a record of the passage and events.

Thanks for that, I will look it up.

 

[ShinyShoe]

OK lets assume you get a log book that is perfect. An entry every 4 hours during the day while tied ashore. Weather, Sea State, Forecast.

If every entry is where they didn't sail is for Force 10, Sea State Rough, you'll think "fine - they couldn't sail. they tried." and not get your £30k

If every entry is for F2, perfect sunny weather. No customers. Who's fault is that? Is that the boat owner - or do other factors play into that. If your target was based on Turnover - its erm... turnover that matters not how many days that he said "Manyana"...

In Italy I seem to recall it is a legal requirement to issue a receipt for EVERY transaction - even if the customer doesn't want one for the 50c chocolate bar. Therefore audited accounts should be the right way to determine turnover.

In UK law - you wrote the contract, so any ambiguity is your fault, and so failure of the third party to meet your ambiguous demand will be deemed not his fault. You asked for a log - he has provided a log. If the log needed to specifically state why passenger numbers were below expectation, it needed to state that.

Next question - contract in UK Law - but you used an Italian Solicitor?

 

[alant]

OK lets assume you get a log book that is perfect. An entry every 4 hours during the day while tied ashore. Weather, Sea State, Forecast.

If every entry is where they didn't sail is for Force 10, Sea State Rough, you'll think "fine - they couldn't sail. they tried." and not get your £30k

If every entry is for F2, perfect sunny weather. No customers. Who's fault is that? Is that the boat owner - or do other factors play into that. If your target was based on Turnover - its erm... turnover that matters not how many days that he said "Manyana"...

In Italy I seem to recall it is a legal requirement to issue a receipt for EVERY transaction - even if the customer doesn't want one for the 50c chocolate bar. Therefore audited accounts should be the right way to determine turnover.

In UK law - you wrote the contract, so any ambiguity is your fault, and so failure of the third party to meet your ambiguous demand will be deemed not his fault. You asked for a log - he has provided a log. If the log needed to specifically state why passenger numbers were below expectation, it needed to state that.

Next question - contract in UK Law - but you used an Italian Solicitor?

A mate who runs a local 'trip boat', said business during recent hot weather, was dismal, because people flocked to beaches instead, so F2 perfect summer weather may not be an indication of passenger levels.

 

[jibtop]

OK lets assume you get a log book that is perfect. An entry every 4 hours during the day while tied ashore. Weather, Sea State, Forecast.

If every entry is where they didn't sail is for Force 10, Sea State Rough, you'll think "fine - they couldn't sail. they tried." and not get your £30k

If every entry is for F2, perfect sunny weather. No customers. Who's fault is that? Is that the boat owner - or do other factors play into that. If your target was based on Turnover - its erm... turnover that matters not how many days that he said "Manyana"...

In Italy I seem to recall it is a legal requirement to issue a receipt for EVERY transaction - even if the customer doesn't want one for the 50c chocolate bar. Therefore audited accounts should be the right way to determine turnover.

In UK law - you wrote the contract, so any ambiguity is your fault, and so failure of the third party to meet your ambiguous demand will be deemed not his fault. You asked for a log - he has provided a log. If the log needed to specifically state why passenger numbers were below expectation, it needed to state that.

Next question - contract in UK Law - but you used an Italian Solicitor?

The solicitors wrote the contract and they were a UK firm. I did not use an Italian solicitor

 

[Tranona]

The solicitors wrote the contract and they were a UK firm. I did not use an Italian solicitor

Then your dispute is under your contract. Any coding requirements for log books is irrelevant.

Your clause seems unambiguous and your buyer has not provided what is called for unless he can show that his scribbled notes provide the information you require.

How you enforce the condition is a different matter as there does not seem anything in the contract about the consequences of him not providing or more seriously not meeting the performance level you said was achievable.

 

[jibtop]

Then your dispute is under your contract. Any coding requirements for log books is irrelevant.

Your clause seems unambiguous and your buyer has not provided what is called for unless he can show that his scribbled notes provide the information you require.

How you enforce the condition is a different matter as there does not seem anything in the contract about the consequences of him not providing or more seriously not meeting the performance level you said was achievable.

That is the problem, the scribbled notes are meaningless as he had already provided a weekly list of numbers of pax carried, so they definitely do not provide the information that I require.

What I need to do is to get a solicitor to view the contract . I don't know if you or anyone could recommend a solicitor in the UK.

Many thanks

 

[lpdsn]

Problem is that you'll very quickly run up a bill of more than £30K arguing about the £30K. And how are you going to enforce it if you win?

I guess you could try complaining about your solicitor and the fact the clause in the contract is ambiguous and impractical to enforce, but who specified that in the deal?

 

[jibtop]

Problem is that you'll very quickly run up a bill of more than £30K arguing about the £30K. And how are you going to enforce it if you win?

I guess you could try complaining about your solicitor and the fact the clause in the contract is ambiguous and impractical to enforce, but who specified that in the deal?

Yes you are probably right, but it would be good to have a solicitor look at it and get their opinion, if they feel there is no case I will just have to move on. The purchaser specified the the performance related payment and my solicitors put the clause in the contract.

The trouble was that leading up to the sale I was in and out of hospital a lot due to an operation that had gone wrong, so relied heavily on the solicitors.

 

[TOKOLOSHI]

The buyer has no intention of paying you! Moral being rely on your own judgement and stay out of the hands of Clergy, doctors and lawyers! They will always cost you!:encouragement: