Insuring organisers of rallies against third party liability - necessary or not?

[TheOldCodger]

What do people think about the necessity of insuring rally organisers for events they put on. Are risk assesments, evidence of owner's insurance and disclaimers adequate? Am expecting numerous views here. All much appreciated. TOC

 

[Resolution]

The Old Codger has been a little bit short on background here, so let me help. Like many generous souls here he has voluntarily organised some get together so for groups of friends / sailors. With such good effect that he has been asked to organise more of these "rallies". No payment or remuneration, no charter company or commercial organisation behind all this.
What do the rest of you do about insurance when you organise a few friends for an outing?

 

[TSB240]

What do the rest of you do about insurance when you organise a few friends for an outing?

Well the only insurance I take out if organising an outing with FRIENDS is to ensure the fun box is well stocked and we have a plentiful supply of snacks and rehydrants.
Being based in Wales we can't afford Pluvial cover for our beach parties.!
Your friend the op must have some strange friends if he considers he needs any form of liability insurance.

 

[Seajet]

I don't think it's the friends /participants to worry about, more like if someone breaks their arse on a cleat or something, relatives who've seen the ' ambulance chasers are us ' adverts might smell money...

Ask Galadriel of this parish, I'm pretty sure he was in exactly this position, used to organise worthy events but then met with insurance worries; not sure of the outcome.

 

[prv]

relatives who've seen the ' ambulance chasers are us ' adverts might smell money...

Then again, of course, the ambulance-chasers might consider it only worth chasing those who do have insurance .

Maybe I'm being naive, but I can't see much potential liability in organising the typical rally. Skippers responsible for their own boats and decision to go to sea, etc, other businesses providing all the facilities like berthing and catering. What's someone going to do, sue you because they don't like your choice of restaurant?

Pete

 

[charles_reed]

The CA response to this, apparently real threat, is to ensure all participants sign a form of indemnity, to say that it's being entirely at their own risk.
Whether or not we think the concept of legal liability for organising a get together is reasonable, it would appear to be a simple precaution.
The parallel of asking all your dinner-party guests to sign an indemnity before crossing your threshold puts the whole business into perspective.

 

[[70521]]

Perhaps a conversation with the legal department of the RYA might help?

 

[Mark-1]

The CA response to this, apparently real threat, is to ensure all participants sign a form of indemnity, to say that it's being entirely at their own risk.
Whether or not we think the concept of legal liability for organising a get together is reasonable, it would appear to be a simple precaution.
The parallel of asking all your dinner-party guests to sign an indemnity before crossing your threshold puts the whole business into perspective.

AFAIK a signed indemnity means little or nothing. You can't sign away your right to redress from someone else's negligence.

Is it likely that a someone organizing a social cruise could negligently cause any harm? I'm struggling to think of a scenario. Has an organizer of a rally ever been sued? I can't think of an example.

No doubt a lawyer will be along shortly with some facts.

 

[GrahamM376]

AFAIK a signed indemnity means little or nothing. You can't sign away your right to redress from someone else's negligence.

Is it likely that a someone organizing a social cruise could negligently cause any harm? I'm struggling to think of a scenario. Has an organizer of a rally ever been sued? I can't think of an example.

No doubt a lawyer will be along shortly with some facts.

I'm no lawyer but remember well the problems we had with the indemnities gliding clubs used to have members of the public sign when having air experience flights - they were worthless and the system changed to temporary membership and a trial lesson as crew member. IIRC people can sign away rights to property damage but not personal injury where negligence is concerned.

I wouldn't have thought the OP has a problem depending on how he organises a get together. If he's doing it like a group of friends going out together and "suggests" a program beforehand and leaves it up to people as to whether they wish to join in or not then I suspect it's their risk not his.

 

[awol]

Careful wording of any correspondence could make it relatively easy to claim it is a "critical mass" event - no leader, just a "happening". However, insurers may regard a group of yachts sailing together from a common start to a common destination as "racing".

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'm no lawyer but remember well the problems we had with the indemnities gliding clubs used to have members of the public sign when having air experience flights - they were worthless and the system changed to temporary membership and a trial lesson as crew member.

Indeed, and I give that system about 3.5 milliseconds after someone (else) gets seriously injured in an "air experience" flight. It's a complete fudge.

 

[GrahamM376]

Indeed, and I give that system about 3.5 milliseconds after someone (else) gets seriously injured in an "air experience" flight. It's a complete fudge.

Took more than a few milliseconds but payouts have been made in at least 3 fatal accidents at the club I was a member of. Fortunately, I had handed the insurance job over to someone else before then so wasn't involved.

 

[Resolution]

Took more than a few milliseconds but payouts have been made in at least 3 fatal accidents at the club I was a member of. Fortunately, I had handed the insurance job over to someone else before then so wasn't involved.

Three fatal accidents? In how long?
Not sure I would want to join a club that lost members on a frequent basis. Sailing seems so much safer by comparison.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Took more than a few milliseconds but payouts have been made in at least 3 fatal accidents at the club I was a member of. Fortunately, I had handed the insurance job over to someone else before then so wasn't involved.

I do hope your club didn't manage to kill three AEI passengers ... sorry, trainees. Mind you, I remember being told by a site check instructor at one fairly well known site that I wasn't pulling back enough at the top of a winch launch despite the facts that (a) we were on the edge of pre-stall buffet (b) we were in a Puchacz and (c) they had had a fatal spin off the winch in a Puchacz on an AEI flight a couple of weeks earlier.

The entire attitude to safety at that club was so utterly cavalier that I never went back.

 

[GrahamM376]

I do hope your club didn't manage to kill three AEI passengers ... sorry, trainees.

4 actually over a period of years whilst I was a member, 1 in a mid air, 1 hit winch cable, 2 in spinning accidents. I sold both my glider shares in 1994 and took up sailing - no sailing related funerals so far

 

[GrahamM376]

Three fatal accidents? In how long?
Not sure I would want to join a club that lost members on a frequent basis. Sailing seems so much safer by comparison.

Yes, sailing is a much safer sport but things have tightened up over the years and I think gliding is a lot safer now than it used to be.

The three I referred to were insurance payouts that I'm aware of. I think the total number of fatalities at that particular club since I started gliding in 1974 up to the present date stands at around 12 but 5 were in 2 x mid-airs.

It's a hill top site and one of the more difficult ones to fly from with quite often rota present in certain conditions. I can remember several occasions when I was wave flying and really wasn't looking forward to the circuit and landing!

 

[jimbaerselman]

The appropriate routine to avoid need for indemnity is to suggest a series of "meets" at key spots at certain dates and times, maybe reserving berths/tables if that pre-planning is needed. Those arriving make their own individual payments to any suppliers. Avoid suppliers who want up front payments (very few do). Leave all passage planning judgement and execution to individual boats.

If up front payments are needed for services on arrival, then the organiser/payer takes some responsiblity for delivering the service as an agent. Just like Mum booking a family meal in a restaurant, and having 3/15 not turn up.

If a pre-trip briefings are offered, for a "cruise in company", including judgements on weather, equipment to carry, routings to avoid TSS, etc etc, it's different. Then a question of liability could arise if any incident occurs, and its cause could be traced to incorrect advice. However, you'd then have to prove some form of contract - a promise to deliver - for some consideration. Instructor liablity insurance should cover that situation. Many clubs have suitable liability insurances, which may or may not require "disclaimer" forms.

Disclaimer forms usually work only as dis-incentives to make a claim. They can't take away a claimants obvious rights under any agreement.

Having said all that, I must make clear I'm not a lawyer qualified to advise on this matter, though I have arranged many "rallies". So don't read this post without first noting this disclaimer.

"I'm not qualified to advise on this matter."

I hope that gets me off the hook . . .

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Why should a "rally" be any different from racing where liability is concerned. In our races participants sign a declaration wherein they recognise that "the decision to race or continue racing lies solely with the skipper". This has become the norm since the chaos of the Sydney-Hobart some years ago.
As regards damage to or by third parties, this would be handled by the insurance of the participants themselves, in the absence of which (if such is not mandatory in your country) any claim would devolve to a personal responsibility.

 

[GrahamM376]

Why should a "rally" be any different from racing where liability is concerned. In our races participants sign a declaration wherein they recognise that "the decision to race or continue racing lies solely with the skipper". This has become the norm since the chaos of the Sydney-Hobart some years ago.
As regards damage to or by third parties, this would be handled by the insurance of the participants themselves, in the absence of which (if such is not mandatory in your country) any claim would devolve to a personal responsibility.

If the race is organised by a club, then they should have club liability and member to member liability insurance. Signing an indemnity won't stop anyone being sued for personal injury in the case of negligence. I would suggest the OP talks to the RYA legal dept as the way the proposed event is worded can have liability implications.

 

[Kelpie]

A few years back I was involved in setting up a sailing club. I spoke to the RYA legal team and gleaned that whilst 'you must have insurance' is a safe and knee-jerk response, it isn't always expected or necessary. For example, Owners Associations can run certain events without insurance- possibly a reflection on the homogenous nature of the group, without obvious leaders. Also, the RYA told me that they couldn't find a single example of a club having to use its insurance to pay out on accidents/incidents at casual non-racing meets. Usually clubs claim on their insurance because of damage to their own property.

At the end of the day, a skipper is wholly responsible for his boat and everything that it does. If individual members have insurance then in many instances that will suffice.

I remember discussing what sort of liability a racing club could possibly incur. One suggestion was that if a race marker dragged its anchor into shallow or dangerous water, the club might be sued by whoever blindly followed the course without realising that something had changed. However, I discovered that if a Trinity House buoy similarly drags, you will be on a hiding to nothing trying to sue them if you consequently run aground. So why should a sailing club be liable in the same scenario?