Insurance again

[chrishewett]

With reference to my post yesterday and Chris Callenders question, I insured with Bishop Skinner. They were the only people I could find who would insure me without a survey. All they required was four photos which I emailed them. I had suddenly had to put the boat in at Gibralter Point and the yacht club required insurance details so I didnt have time to shop around as I would have liked. Insurance is due for renewal this summer so I would be grateful for any advice about surveys (is it worth having one and where do I go?) and insurance companies.
Thanks in advance

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[arran]

My view is that surveys are imortant if you are buying a second hand boat and can be valuable when it comes to negotiations. At other times I have found good free advice from fellow sailors and local businesses in the marine industry. Our yacht had a survey a few years ago and the surveyor completely neglected to mention anything about the 'jesus' gasket on our Volvo Saildrive unit, but did go into great lengths about the possibility of osmosis.

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[chriscallender]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for letting me know that it was Bishop Skinner - funnily enough I tried them in June last year and they needed a survey report so maybe it depends on the value of the boat or something.

Anyway, one thing to realise is that getting the survey done probably won't be the end of it - the insurance company will want "survey report with all recommendations complied with".

There are now quite a few recommendations that are almost standard on all surveys, and if you go back through old threads you'll find quite a lot of discussion on them. Some specific ones you might find interesting to search on if you've got an older boat : standing rigging, gas installations and electrical.

In case I've given the wrong impression I'm not up for going to sea in any boat thats not safe. However, I don't have the resources (time or money) to modernise everything on my boat in one big hit so I've needed to prioritise. So far the rigging is done and next on the plan is to remove gas completely from the boat. Once everything is 110% up to morden standards I'll get the survey done, hopefully with no nasty surprises!

So, I don't think its the survey thats the issue with the older boat so much as complying with all recommendations. But I guess good surveyors don't make recommendations for the sheer fun of it and we all know that boats old or new cost $$$ to maintain. The only thing I find a bit sad is that in the future maybe the scope for doing DIY work will be reduced if you want to get insurance, and I believe that good high standard DIY work actually makes your boat a safer place because you know how everything works, where every cable, hose or pipe does. Of course DIY botch ups are a different story.

Chris

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[colvic]

The problem is that surveyors can be held accountable by Insurance Companies and in consequence go over the top to protect themselves; our surveyor claimed his indemnity insurances cost him well over a £1k a year.

I agree that gas, electric and standing rigging seem to be favourite, with moisture readings all over the hull and keel. Though our gas system is sound, I wasCorgi Reg. until retirement, it is recomended that a bubble leak detector and gas tap be fitted. I use a proper test gauge costing a lot less than a bubble leak detector and have a remote solenoid valve to shut off the gas after the locker and before it runs to oven, hob and boiler in three seperate circuits each without a join. Not even mentioned and I suspect not noticed.

The demanding of a survey justs ends up increasing eveybodies costs.

Try St. Margarets, no hassle immediate decision, good price and a quote before sight of the survey though they were given a verbal summary of it. Our boat is 20 years old and the surveyor said that every Ins. Co will no be asking for a survey with PERHAPS another one every three years.


Phil

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[maxi]

Indemnity Insurance

Colvic is on the right track but a bit behind the times, I am currently being quoted £2,400pa for professional indemnity - and that's with a totally clean record. It takes a lot of surveys to amortise that sort of sum, or survey fees that customers just don't want to pay. The insurance industry used to boast that they were in the gambling business - now they just want risk free guaranteed profits and hang the cost to the end user.

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[Bergman]

Re: How honest are they?

Heard a disquieting story last year - from the victim.

Survey done on boat with a report of "wicking" - recommendation was full osmosis treatment £4-5k

Next news was call from surveyor saying he had booked boat into "best priced yard" for treatment and "slot was booked"

The yard is within walking distance of his office, Subtle check, ie call yard and ask if they know a decent surveyor - guess who was recommended, phone number immediately to hand.

Don't know where things went from there except that the boat did not go to the booked yard, and the victim was convinced there was some sort of kickback involved.

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[chriscallender]

Re: Indemnity Insurance

Its a shame though, I can't help but feel that this culture of everyone sueing everyone else is being allowed to go too far these days and there are more of us loosing from it than winning (apart from solicitors!).

Of course there are valid reasons for claiming damages from someone but I wonder what percentage of todays successful claims would have been considered valid 20 years ago.

Sometimes think it would be nice to turn the clock back, I must be getting old...!

Chris

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[chrishewett]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.
Of course safety is paramount, especially as I am getting so old! I am now more safety minded by a long way than when I started sailing twentyfive years ago. I know the standing rigging was replaced competently just before I bought the boat and I have sorted the electrics myself and have full confidence. As for the gas side I know that a survey would make all sorts of expensive recomendations that I am not prepared to pay for at the moment. As a retailer of bottled gas for the last ten years I know all the dangers and I believe that as long as you are aware and take the proper precautions you can be safe. Most safety regulations are designed to protect down to the most incompetant. I am prepared to stand the risk of total loss but require basic third party insurance ( I can afford to lose the £5K in my own boat but not the £50K in yours!). I am day skipper qualified and will take yachtsman this year. Why then could I only find one company that would insure my boat without a survey. The largest risk must be the third party part and so why are they more interested in wether my boat has osmosis than in my competance as a skipper? I did find a company that would insure me third party only without a survey but the differance in premium was about a fiver. Sorry I just think there is a conspiracy.
Chris H

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[chriscallender]

Hi Chris,

All very good questions I wish I knew the answer to. Like you I'm prepared to stand the risk of a total loss but need 3rd party insurance. Additionally I'd also like to be able to have theft insurance for the boat and gear on it and also some kind cover in case it ever breaks loose from my mooring when I'm not around so I can sleep easier on windy nights.

Hull moisture readings, gas inspections and so on have no bearing on the risk of these things I'd like to be covered for. But there is no 3rd party, drifting and theft policy for boats :-(

Anyway I wonder what percentage of claims are down to poor maintenance standards and what percentage are down to inexperience/poor judgement of the skipper. As yousay, it definitely seems funny that they take so much more interest in the hardware than the experience and qualifications of those using it.

Chris

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[Guest]

This trend is also evident in car insurance. Last year I tried to insure two older vehicles (8 and 14 yrs) for 3rd party only, bearing the risk of collision, fire and theft myself. I shopped around and found many insurers reluctant to quote, and for those that did quote there was only about 10% difference in premium between 3rd party only and full comprehensive. Not sure what's going on, but I guess the risk of collision, fire and theft will never exceed the value of the vehicle, while 3rd party claims can on occasion be in the £millions.

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