insulation for headlining

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chrisbitz

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www.freyacat.co.uk
In another thread, I was reading about an alternative roof insulation that might be cheaper... I had a look in B&Q today, and found their 3mm version (instead of the proper 5mm stuff) and it does seem to be identical except for the thickness...

I also found some different alternatives on ebay too...

Which one would you choose?

B&Q 3mm foam underlay
http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/floori...ive-Flooring-Underlay-12608617?skuId=13129323


5mm Super Gold Laminate Engineered Wood Flooring Underlay Sound Damp Proof DPM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5mm-Super...55282?pt=UK_Flooring&var=&hash=item3a81c63b12


Cloud 9 Radiance - Underlay for Underfloor Heating
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cloud-9-R...FittedCarpets_Underlay_SM&hash=item2a148fad64

Boat Insulation Aluminium Thermal Foil Double 7.5M
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boat-Insu...tEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item3f2d91c094
 
This is a job that I have been looking at too. My intention is to use Plastazote, a closed cell foam used in a number of industries. It is what Roger Taylor has used in both Ming Mings, is available in thicknesses from 3mm to at least 30mm, is available in white if you don't want to cover it and will last a long time without degrading. LD45 is the preferred grade. The cheapest supplier I have found is Conservation By Design Ltd but there certainly are others.
I find that is cuts neatly with normal retractable-blade knives and will accept a range of glues from neoprene cement to Sikaflex. The job on Ming Ming II is described on the ECS website.

Cheers
Rum Run
 
Rum Run said:
cuts neatly with normal retractable-blade knives and will accept a range of glues from neoprene cement to Sikaflex. T
Click to expand...

I have used this material at school, we built a racing car body from it. It will accept some glues readily, but it will also shrug off other glues very quickly... it may surprise you that gaffa tape does not stick to it at all, but 3M aluminium duct sealing tape works well. The best glue we found is traditional Evo Stick contact adhesive. You can also weld sections together using a hot knife.

It does not conform at all well to compound curves when cold, but heating well with an infrared heat lamp allows it to be stretched into 3D shapes where it will stay when it cools.
Ask away if you think I can help in any way..??
photo.JPG
 
Is anything just a few mm thick likely to do much by way of heat insulation? Some of those underlays even claim to be poor insulators....and therefore good for use with underfloor heating.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Is anything just a few mm thick likely to do much by way of heat insulation? Some of those underlays even claim to be poor insulators....and therefore good for use with underfloor heating.
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We used 2 or 3 layers of 6mm closed cell foam. This is the same stuff used to make camping mats. If you try and use thicker sheets it won't bend to the curves. The boat was so much better when it was insulated. Stayed a lot warmer in winter and cooler in summer
 
I used camping mats from the 99p shop. Did the job really easily with an aerosol trim fix glue, seems to be a decent insulation under the van type carpet lining and cost under a quid. Think I used about £3.96 worth for the forecabin on a 25ft.
 
chrisbitz said:
In another thread, I was reading about an alternative roof insulation that might be cheaper... I had a look in B&Q today, and found their 3mm version (instead of the proper 5mm stuff) and it does seem to be identical except for the thickness...

I also found some different alternatives on ebay too...

Which one would you choose?

B&Q 3mm foam underlay
http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/floori...ive-Flooring-Underlay-12608617?skuId=13129323


5mm Super Gold Laminate Engineered Wood Flooring Underlay Sound Damp Proof DPM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5mm-Super...55282?pt=UK_Flooring&var=&hash=item3a81c63b12


Cloud 9 Radiance - Underlay for Underfloor Heating
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cloud-9-R...FittedCarpets_Underlay_SM&hash=item2a148fad64

Boat Insulation Aluminium Thermal Foil Double 7.5M
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boat-Insu...tEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item3f2d91c094
Click to expand...


None, have a look here;

http://www.acefoam.co.uk/store/products/closed-cell-foam/
 
PeterWright said:
I'm pretty sure that when used with underfloor heating, the underlay goes under the heating, with the floating floor / engineered wood directly in top of the heating film.
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I think you'll find the underlays listed by OP are just that; underlays which are intended to go directly beneath the wood flooring and primarily for noise insulation. With TOG ratings below one they offer probably no more than a single sheet on a bed.
Heat insulation, as you suggest, would be installed beneath the underfloor heating but the underlays would be next to useless for that.
 
The whole point of my quest is to get something practical, so builders 30mm 50 TOG insulation probably isn't going to be any use. :-)

Anything with bubbles in will be better than nothing but it needs to be around 5mm. Would 2x3mm insulators would actually be better than 1x6mm insulator, all things being equal?

I'm trying to think outside the box, rather than just buy some space age, very expensive, state of the art, perfect insulation! :-)
 
chrisbitz said:
The whole point of my quest is to get something practical, so builders 30mm 50 TOG insulation probably isn't going to be any use. :-)

Anything with bubbles in will be better than nothing but it needs to be around 5mm. Would 2x3mm insulators would actually be better than 1x6mm insulator, all things being equal?



I'm trying to think outside the box, rather than just buy some space age, very expensive, state of the art, perfect insulation! :-)
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To answer your question, yes but why use two layers to make up 6mm when you can get it in one layer. If you look at the Ace foam site (and I have no connection) you will see the do it in various thicknesses. I have done what you propose with layers of Hawke house foam and camping mat and it is a pain. Very difficult to get a bond that you can be confident with. Having said that, I have been doing awkward lockers, the roof lining will probably be easier. Further, if you are just trying to combat heat loss then 3 / 6mm of foam will go some way but if you want to combat condensation it is all down to the dew point and believe me you will need more than 6mm, at least 18 / 20mm. You also need to make sure that you get closed cell foam. A lot of the "builders" products are open cell or felt which will soak up any moisture in the air. By the way the Ace foam stuff is not space age, it's simple closed cell foam but of better quality than most camping mats.

Also, I have settled on the 25mm thick in white. It goes round curves easily and is thick enough to make a proper sealed joint with adhesive. Dead easy to cut with a bread knife with no dust.
 
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I used the first in your list and have been really pleased with the result. It has performed really well thermally (despite only being 3 mm) being closed cell it performs a whole lot better than the foam backing to vinyl it replaces. The self adhesive backing works remarkably well although I also put a spray of impact adhesive on the surface it was sticking to as it was almost impossible to get the surface absolutely dust free. If you do need to double up the thickness the self adhesive backing will be more than adequate for the second layer.
 
Hadenough said:
but if you want to combat condensation it is all down to the dew point and believe me you will need more than 6mm, at least 18 / 20mm.
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I'm afraid I don't understand... You use technical words like Dew point, So I guess you know your stuff, but in my practical experience, I thought that condensation occurs when warm air hits a cold surface.

the 3mm insulation feels warm to the touch so is a good insulator, and as long as is makes the roof of the boat no longer a cold surface, then it will stop condensation. And judging from other replies from people who've only used foam backed vinyl, that's even stopped condensation (because it stops the hull being a cold surface)..

Do you live in a much colder climate than England or something, as I can't understand how you can be sure that 3mm will do nothing to stop condensation?
 
chrisbitz said:
I'm afraid I don't understand... You use technical words like Dew point, So I guess you know your stuff, but in my practical experience, I thought that condensation occurs when warm air hits a cold surface.

the 3mm insulation feels warm to the touch so is a good insulator, and as long as is makes the roof of the boat no longer a cold surface, then it will stop condensation. And judging from other replies from people who've only used foam backed vinyl, that's even stopped condensation (because it stops the hull being a cold surface)..

Do you live in a much colder climate than England or something, as I can't understand how you can be sure that 3mm will do nothing to stop condensation?
Click to expand...

Because I've tried it. We liveaboard in Britain. I tried 3mm then 6mm and while it does have an insulative benefit it doesn't move the dew point far enough away from the cold outer hull to combat condensation in certain conditions. In simple terms The dew point is where the warm air and the cold air meet and conspire to condense the moisture out of the warm air. It can happpen within the insulation if condititions are right (or wrong, whichever way you look at it) this is why it is so important not to use open cell foam. Using a foam with a foil surface as a vapour barrier will help. With our old boat I had some success insulating behind the ceiling panels with two layers of 3mm, in some places with bubble foil stapled over. But currently I am chasing condensation around the boat despite the fact that we use a dehumidifier. And have found that in lockers above and below the waterline I need at least 18mm to stop it in all conditions. I've gone for overkill with 25mm and it works brilliantly. Having said all that, we liveaboard with all the additional problems of full lockers, cooking and breathing! If you are trying to warm up your boat for occasional use you will probably be ok with 6mm.
 
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