Installing new engine

ghostlymoron

ghostlymoron

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I'm considering installing a slightly more modern engine in my Mirror Offshore to replace the old MD1. I'm wondering how am I going to get the old engine out - it weighs over 3 cwt. It's got a substantial flywheel which would reduce the weight substantially if I could get it off. Any tips for this?
 
I just installed a refurbished MD1 in my Halcyon 23... I had the boat yard lift it in for me.... they hauled it up into the rafters of the boat shed on a chain and pulley, wheeled the boat in underneath (on its trailer) then lowered it into the boat... I would think even with the fly wheel off, you would still need some sort of lifting equipment, if only due to the fact that there is limited space to get people around it in order to lift it, and far too many obstacles to carry/drag it any distance.
 
ghostlymoron said:
I'm considering installing a slightly more modern engine in my Mirror Offshore to replace the old MD1. I'm wondering how am I going to get the old engine out - it weighs over 3 cwt. It's got a substantial flywheel which would reduce the weight substantially if I could get it off. Any tips for this?
Click to expand...

I shall follow this one with interest

they are great little boats

- tough, they sail well and the accommodation in under 19 foot is amazing

I think you will need a gantry. The lip on the bottom of the engine access hatch should come free with couple of screws so you can get the old MD 1 out without removing the fly-wheel

you can slide it out into ito the cabin on a couple of bits of wood

D
 
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Depends on what resources you have. Clearly if you have a crane you can just lift it out. If you don't then you need to take off as many bits as you can. Flywheel first, then cylinder head and split block from the gearbox. You should be able to handle all the bits manually or with the help of a block and tackle on a beam across the companionway.

Hope you have gone through the economics and practicalities of fitting another engine. Another more modern engine will not just drop in - you will almost certainly have to rebuild the beds as the footprint will be different, replace exhaust, propeller, controls etc. Often the cost of this exceeds the value of the boat!
 
This forum is famous not just for its helpful advice but for querying the motives of OPs! What's actually wrong with your existing engine? Whatever it is is probably fixable at a lot less cost.
 
I have never expected my boating would be a good financial investment. I pay money to have a good time. If your current engine is causing you concern replace it. If a new, reliable, lighter engine will make you enjoy your boating more, and you can afford it, then there is no problem. Have a heavy hammer to hand and a blowtorch. You can sometimes use the boom as a 'crane' but it will be awkward. You can hoist out of places where there is not direct overhead access by putting a pulley round the hoisting line and tying it off so as to angle it. This is particularly useful for engines which are often needing to go up and forward a bit to get them off their beds and then up and back to get them out of the gangway. You can tie the pulley to the mast if it goes through the cabin.
 
dylanwinter said:
I think you will need a gantry. The lip on the bottom of the engine access hatch should come free with couple of screws so you can get the old MD 1 out without removing the fly-wheel
Click to expand...

Removing the flywheel will make it a lot lighter to move, though. I took the alternator off Kindred Spirit's 2GM20 before lifting it out - no other readily removable parts, but every little helps.

We had the boat ashore in the yard, and a mate who used to hire out sound and lighting equipment came down with a couple of big speaker stands and a length of lighting truss. The speaker stands were like chest-high tripods, with a central mast that telescoped upwards to about 12 feet by winding a winch. We set one on each side of the boat, with the truss between them. You could do similar with scaffolding or timber.

To do the actual lifting, he also brought a small 240v winch, bought from eBay for another job for about £40 apparently. We ran it off my generator. Obviously a chain hoist or even a tackle would work too. This was attached via a short strop looped over the truss, so that we were able (with a little difficulty) to slide it from side to side, and lower the engine back down to the ground.

Nothing particularly clever about the process of lifting out. Just check very carefully for any pipes and wires still attached (bonding and negative wires attached to random bolts are easily missed), and also check that the lifting point is strong enough. The one on the top of my engine was missing a nut, so that the fuel injector pipes secured to it were the only thing holding it on. If we'd lifted without noticing that, we'd have ripped the pipes off and left the engine where it was! We couldn't do a straight vertical lift, it needed to come forwards out of the engine bay, but once the weight was hanging on the wire I was able to manhandle it past the obstructions while my mate operated the winch up and down as needed.

Pete
 
richardabeattie said:
This forum is famous not just for its helpful advice but for querying the motives of OPs! What's actually wrong with your existing engine? Whatever it is is probably fixable at a lot less cost.
Click to expand...

I am sure you are dead right

it does sound like a shed load of work and a shed load of money and not doing much sailing

of course.... you could always cut an outboard well or just use an outboard on the back

here is 5 hp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUWQgvHtgYo

and here is 2.3 hp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv1-HSrYtY8

they make a long shaft which I reckon has plenty of power

I do miss the sound of the beast though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-8EW2AxkqA


which is now a ring tone
 
Personally I would be rid of that old MD1 asap, its not a question of if but when, one of its inherent problems arise it will almost certainly be when you need it most, one of the best replacement options is the trusty 1gm10 or 2gm20 or a Nanni sailboat option, there are a few, I have replaced a number over the years and the owners have been totally satisfied with the conversions as once they get to use the new install they knew it was the right thing to do, old engine rebuilds are ok but there comes a time when the cost over time exceeds replacement or the time needed to rebuild constantly means your laid up more than you use it.

There is always concern with engine replacements, the cost is always the foremost, but the most important is homework ... dimension the engine space carefully then use that to make your decision on which engine to go for, timber and steel beds are easy to work with but timber beds encased in glass fibre arent so easy, if your not overly competent with working with gf then get a good person to do that bit for you, you may or may not need to replace the shaft and or coupling and you may or may not need to re-route the exhaust, these jobs are never straight forward, can be a bit of hassle, but 90% of the time are well worth the effort, moreso when all you want is reliability and not just an investment.
 
Richardbeattie, the only thing wrong with my current engine is that it's a MD1 and many parts are unobtainable including cylinder head gaskets so if I have a problem, I won't be able to fix it.
Tranona, I'm well aware that a new engine (I'm considering a Yanmar GM10 for which parts are still available) will not just drop in and require a few ancillaries.
Pmagowan, thanks for your encouragement. I realise that a replacement engine will cost nearly as much as the boat did and I will not recoup it if I sell. However, I can afford it and it will give me the chance to improve access for maintenance as well as being more reliable (not that the MD1 has been unreliable yet).
Dylan, I've already got a bracket on the back with a Honda 2.3 (and Seagull in reserve)
 
I took my Bukh 20 out by removing the flywheel, a significant weight saving, then lifted the engine onto an old skateboard using a turfer on a beam across the companionway. I then rolled it down a plank into the saloon and lifted it out using the mainsheet. Not the preferred method but my chain block and other lifting gear were in UK and I was in Holland.

There's a pic on the website of Owen and me lifting a big Volvo into his boat using a chain block and the boom. It didn't seem to overstress the rig at all but we hung the block half way along the boom to reduce loading a bit. That was a very heavy engine, lifted in one piece.
 
Probably with difficulty. undo the big nut and put a puller on it. It is on a taper so may be hard to shift but will come off easily once the taper is broken. Make sure the nut is still on the shaft - you don't want it falling on your toes.

If you are buying a new engine then get a Beta or Nanni 10. Not much more money than a Yanmar, same physical size but infinitely better. If you are lucky enough to find a good used Yanmar then be careful about the gearbox ratio as there are 3 different ratios and you may have a restriction on the size of prop you can fit.
 
Tim D said:
Personally I would be rid of that old MD1 asap, its not a question of if but when, one of its inherent problems arise it will almost certainly be when you need it most, one of the best replacement options is the trusty 1gm10 or 2gm20 or a Nanni sailboat option, there are a few, I have replaced a number over the years and the owners have been totally satisfied with the conversions as once they get to use the new install they knew it was the right thing to do, old engine rebuilds are ok but there comes a time when the cost over time exceeds replacement or the time needed to rebuild constantly means your laid up more than you use it.

There is always concern with engine replacements, the cost is always the foremost, but the most important is homework ... dimension the engine space carefully then use that to make your decision on which engine to go for, timber and steel beds are easy to work with but timber beds encased in glass fibre arent so easy, if your not overly competent with working with gf then get a good person to do that bit for you, you may or may not need to replace the shaft and or coupling and you may or may not need to re-route the exhaust, these jobs are never straight forward, can be a bit of hassle, but 90% of the time are well worth the effort, moreso when all you want is reliability and not just an investment.
Click to expand...

Hear, hear - even when you've rebuilt the engine completely you've still got an old gearbox.
However the bit about dimensioning is key.
Seduced by the sales literature I replaced a 2GM with a 3YM - same footprint, I was assured, fit in the same space - had to extend the bearers by 92mm and there always was a strange knocking noise motor-sailing on starboard tack, which turned out to be the more powerful replacement to the original Hitachi alternator hitting the side of the engine box.
The engine is superb, 7.9 knots @ 3600 rpm, 1.2 litres/hr @ cruise revs and total cost only 8% more than completely rebuilding the 2GM.
I did have my engine replaced by a very reputable shipyard - since then I've found quite a few snags - but who doesn't after 3000hrs.
So I'd say, replace it - but hasten slowly.
 
I've checked the dimensions and the GM10 is about 7" less high than the MD1 and also slightly shorter. I can't find exact details of the mounting positions but they look very similar. The one I'm looking at also has all the controls and a single lever throttle and gearshift. How hard can it be? I'll have slightly more power and massively more generation (alternator instead of Dynostart) so advantages all round. BUT - I'm not underestimating the work involved.
 
We changed an MD1 for 1GM10 in a folkboat years ago and found that we also needed a new prop as the engine rotates the other way and a new prop shaft as the existing one was too short, it all adds to the overall cost.

But the stern of the boat was 2 inches higher out of the water
 
I replaced my old MD1 with a Volvo MD2010 some 4 years ago and found that the shaft an propellor needed to be changed,new engine mounts and new angle iron bearers for the new dimensions of the smaller engine.I LSO changed the raw water filter from the bronze lump for the lighter and more efficient vetus type filter(but much cheaper than vetus)from Force4.
As you may know the prop has to match the gear reduction of your engine for which there is a guide on the internet.
Removing our engine took a mornings work completevwith flywheel but with all ancilliaries removed,sliding it into the main cabin and using a Haltrack tackle to deck level then 4 of us with 4x2's slung to lift ashore.We had intended to use our club crane but it was out of order on the day.
Installation of the new engine went smoothly (no flywheel!) and has been first class and much quieter than the MD1. We use about 1 1\2 ltrs
an hour at 2600rpm and 5knots and up to 3600rpm if needed.
A proper alternator and starter makes a difference too!
Good luck with your choice and installation.

ianat182
 
I installed a 1GM10 in the space where a Mini Petter 6 had been many years previously on a Hurley 24/70 (the Mariner 9hp o/b the previous owner had hung in the transom as a replacement was sold to recoup some of the cost). I managed to reuse the prop shaft, but needed a new propellor (the Petter and Yanmar rotated in different directions).

Mostly I made things work as I went along, but it worked fine. One tip I picked up from the chandlery - you don't have to use copper pipe for fuel - clear reinforced plastic will work just as well is much easier to install and you can even see where you have an airlock. I used a flexible coupling to take up any minor lack of alignment between the shaft and gearbox. The exhaust is really just a series of expensive bits from Vetus - water lock, muffler and swan neck connected by big black pipe work and secured by doubled up jubilee clips. Whilst the engine is out I'd replace the sound deadening material - I didn't and it was a real bind trying to fit it round the engine afterwards.

Good luck!
 
I used to remove the flywheel on mine and drag the engine into the cabin on lengths of timber. With the flywheel off you can insert timbers below to lever it off the mounting beds, then slide it out. Flywheel will pop off when you hit the crank end a decent whack with a sledgehammer (after loosening the nut!)
 
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