In mast furling stiff

[MagicalArmchair]

We had our shakedown sail over last weekend, it was a stunning day in Poole harbour and we had a lovely sail.

Suffice to say Mirage hasn't been sailed much in the last five/ten years before we purchased her. The wind instruments point somewhere the wind isn't, the echo sounder does not reflect how much wet stuff is under the boat, and the furling gear (which is this: http://www.seldenmast.com/files/595-063-E.pdf) is stiff as a board.

I kicked myself that I had put that sails on before greasing the whole system (I had the perfect conditions to put the main on so leapt at the chance), as it was very stiff to unfurl, and very (very) stiff to refurl up when heading back. On both unfurling, and refurling, I rounded up into the wind as per Seldens advice:

Hi Mark,

We would advise for you to always furl the sail head to wind, this is so that the sail isn’t full, therefore taking the load off of your furling mechanism.

As well as making your furling and life a lot easier it will also help to improve the longevity of your system.

I hope you find this information to your benefit.

Kind regards,

David Richardson
Sales Co-ordinator
Seldén Mast Limited

The sails are brand new (lovely) Kemp Vectron (Dacron with Vectran weaved) sails, so they are quite thick and stiff. Reefing the sail away was so stiff that the continuous line (which I suspect is too skinny anyway (there is a replacement on board that the previous owner never had spliced on)) kept jumping out of the furling winch on the front of the mast. I wanted to keep some tension on the Outhaul to make sure we packed it nice and tight, however, even with the outhaul completely loose (and the sail flogging - I did make sure half way through reefing I clamped it off and did a few turns to try and pack the sail tighter), it was tough going, with me needing to keep tension on the other end of the continuous line to stop it leaping out of the reefing winch on the front of the mast.

Clearly I need to drop the sail, grease the whole lot and then raise it again, there goes a day of sailing, boo, as reefing being that hard is simply painful and dangerous in a blow. I made sure the halyard wasn't too tight when I put the sails on the luff groove, and that the boom was perpendicular to the mast when furling away.

Was my reefing technique right? The below, very good, article states:

How to: A Trouble-free Furling Main

Put the boat on a starboard tack, with the wind slightly forward of the beam. That way, the sail will feed in and around the furler; on a port tack the full height of the sail would be dragged over the sail groove in the mast, adding friction.

Which directly contradicts Seldens own advice.

How do you do it? Any advice on getting my furling system to play nicely? Should I just go sailing and it'll free up from use eventually? (unfurl, refurl, unfurl, refurl, rinse, repeat) Or is that inviting a seized system and disaster?

 

[pvb]

If you look at the diagram in the Selden manual of how the sail wraps around the luff extrusion, it's logical that the sail will have an easier path if the boom is slightly to port. If the wind is forward of the beam, there'll be less resistance to furling.

It sounds like your Furling gear needs some TLC. You don't necessarily have to remove the sail to do this; you should be able to remove the split pin and clevis pin from the luff extrusion (manual, page 13) by applying more tension to the halyard, to lift the sail off the furling gear. Then remove it, clean well, grease well, refit and lower the sail back on to the join.

It also sounds as if your continuous line isn't in great shape. I'd suggest you simply buy some new line (10mm double plait) and splice it up yourself into a continuous loop (that's really good fun and should keep you busy for an hour or two!). I like to rub new furling line with sandpaper to roughen the surface up a bit, it maybe helps with friction on the drive pulley.

If you want to drop the sail, you can also grease the halyard swivel, but I reckon most friction is in the main furling gear. Remember too that halyard tension affects the ease of furling.

 

[Talulah]

We have the same Selden in mast reefing.
We very rarely use the continuous line to furl the sail. Normally only used when conditions prevent using the furling winch at the mast. It is very much easier to do it at the mast.
The next time you furl the main release the outhaul and continuous line completely and furl away at the mast. This will help identify where the problem is.

 

[NormanS]

We have the same Selden in mast reefing.
We very rarely use the continuous line to furl the sail. Normally only used when conditions prevent using the furling winch at the mast. It is very much easier to do it at the mast.
The next time you furl the main release the outhaul and continuous line completely and furl away at the mast. This will help identify where the problem is.

Surely that defeats one of the main advantages of in mast furling. Namely being able to do it easily without having to go forward from the cockpit.

I don't understand how the furling line "jumps out of the winch". I would have thought that the harder you have to pull on it, the deeper the line would want to go into the Vee. Mine works very well.

 

[De.windhoos]

Surely that defeats one of the main advantages of in mast furling. Namely being able to do it easily without having to go forward from the cockpit.

I don't understand how the furling line "jumps out of the winch". I would have thought that the harder you have to pull on it, the deeper the line would want to go into the Vee. Mine works very well.

the furling line jumps the winch if the line is slack. this happens normally if the sail is fully unfurled and the furling line is slack. Just keep some tension on it will normally do the trick. This assumes that the line has the correct diameter.

 

[NormanS]

the furling line jumps the winch if the line is slack. this happens normally if the sail is fully unfurled and the furling line is slack. Just keep some tension on it will normally do the trick. This assumes that the line has the correct diameter.

My furling winch (Kemp / Furlex) has a keep plate on it, which prevents the line coming off.

 

[Catalina36]

If you have in mast furling you deserve all you get. Enjoy.

 

[pvb]

If you have in mast furling you deserve all you get. Enjoy.

That's a particularly silly comment, even for you. In-mast furling works brilliantly for most people, and enables them to achieve more than they might otherwise had.

 

[Catalina36]

That's a particularly silly comment, even for you. In-mast furling works brilliantly for most people, and enables them to achieve more than they might otherwise had.

Until it goes wrong. It's about as unseamanlike as anything we do. BTW I haven't noticed you posting anything worthwhile either sunshine.

 

[NormanS]

Until it goes wrong. It's about as unseamanlike as anything we do. BTW I haven't noticed you posting anything worthwhile either sunshine.

Do you have a furling foresail?

 

[Catalina36]

Do you have a furling foresail?

Yes I do, and it's completely unlike a furling mainsail which if it jams half in and half out in a blow is unmanageable.

 

[NormanS]

Yes I do, and it's completely unlike a furling mainsail which if it jams half in and half out in a blow is unmanageable.

Increasing numbers of boats are using in mast furling. In reasonably competent hands, it's an excellent system.

 

[Catalina36]

Increasing numbers of boats are using in mast furling. In reasonably competent hands, it's an excellent system.

I know, I sail past them all the time.

 

[pvb]

Until it goes wrong. It's about as unseamanlike as anything we do. BTW I haven't noticed you posting anything worthwhile either sunshine.

In-mast furling is fine, and is a great help for loads of sailors. It's in no way unseamanlike, unless you think that furling jibs are unseamanlike too!

BTW if you ever receive as many messages of thanks for your worthwhile advice as I've had, I'll be very surprised.

 

[whiteshythe]

I know, I sail past them all the time.

Check and grease the bearings of your in-mast furling. Don't forget the top swivel bearing. You will have to remove the sail and climb the mast to do this. Also, check the foil tension. These checks are often overlooked,I know this from experience. After ten years of ownership, I wondered why my in-mast furling was getting increasingly stiff to operate. As a last resort I consulted the Selden Manual. To my shame, I found that the bearings should be greased at least annually. I ended up having to replace my top bearing which had almost seized.. Having learned my lesson, I have not had any further problems with In-mast furling, and have sailed over 25,000 miles.

 

[Catalina36]

In-mast furling is fine, and is a great help for loads of sailors. It's in no way unseamanlike, unless you think that furling jibs are unseamanlike too!

BTW if you ever receive as many messages of thanks for your worthwhile advice as I've had, I'll be very surprised.

If I'd had nothing else to do than post over 39,000 posts on here I might look back and wonder how better I might have spent my time.

 

[MagicalArmchair]

If I'd had nothing else to do than post over 39,000 posts on here I might look back and wonder how better I might have spent my time.

Crikey, steady on. If you have nothing positive or useful to say, please don't say it. pvb is a legend and helps people daily here (frankly, I need to start paying forward again and helping others), and is a key part of this community. I sailed for 20 years on my fathers 1930's Gaff Cutter, I had slab reefing on my 30ft Ballad, and in mast with this one, all have positives and negatives. You can screw up all of these, and it can go wrong in any of these setups (over canvassed and under crewed on the RTI race on the Cutter we nearly lose the whole rig over the side).

Back to the matter in hand. Thank you all for the useful and positive responses. I think I'll try and remove the sail and grease the whole lot, thanks for the tip the I can do it with the sail in situ pvb, I'll see how windy it is when I'm next down to the boat.

the furling line jumps the winch if the line is slack. this happens normally if the sail is fully unfurled and the furling line is slack. Just keep some tension on it will normally do the trick. This assumes that the line has the correct diameter.

You can see the rope, at quite a tension, being pulled, and then slipping\jumping through the jaws of the below reefing winch, and the actual winch not moving. If you put some tension on the 'tail' of the continuous line, you can drag it through. Doing it from the mast with a winch handle on ratchet, I should imagine, would be much easier, however, I would prefer to save that as the 'last resort'.

 

[NormanS]

I know, I sail past them all the time.

I know that you're new on here, and we do make allowances for newbies, but I'm sorry to say that I've yet to see a useful, helpful, or non argumentative post from you. ?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

...
You can see the rope, at quite a tension, being pulled, and then slipping\jumping through the jaws of the below reefing winch, and the actual winch not moving. If you put some tension on the 'tail' of the continuous line, you can drag it through. ...

My now-sold Vision 42 had this system, or one very like it. The continuous furler would slip in the jaws of the mast winch, if the lazy end of the furling line had no tension on it. Even with electric winches on the coachroof this meant that furling was really a two man job unless as otherwise suggested you just let the outhaul fly. Hand one, winch handle or button in my case. Hand two, tension on tail of furling line. These two ideally the same person. On my boat, this furling line winch was on coachroof and a bit hard to see the sail through the sprayhood from there. Hand three - outhaul, ideally at the stern to watch the sail shape and furling progress.

Also, I agree with the earlier suggestion of having the wind on stbd bow, ahead of amidships for sure, and not on the nose.

 

[Laysula]

Do make sure that all your turning blocks are free running as well.