In Mast Furling - How stiff is too stiff?

[Paul_S123]

As the title says, I am (subject survey next week) going to be the proud owner of a Moody 31 Mk2. I met the owner at the boat today, just to go over a few tips and tricks he has developed over the 10 years he has owned the boat. All stuff you'd expect from a 28 y/o boat to have, such as sea cock locations, battery set up etc.

The boat has a Easy Reef in mast furling set up. We wound the sail out and quite frankly, it seemed very tight to get out. He was at the mast pulling it, I was grinding the line on the winch. It did come out, but having never seen one in use before, I was curious if this amount of effort is normal.

Winding back in was more of a one man operation, but again..needed a decent bit of winching. More than I would have thought.

The sail looks in good condition, the owner said it's always that tight...has been for the 10 years he has owned it.

Without getting into whether people like the in mast, I was hoping that some people that have had it, or sailed on a boat with it..had some input over the force needed to operate it. Is there a fix to make it smoother? I don't mind spending a few quid...just don't want to have to buy a new sail.

Thanks.

 

[johnalison]

A friend of mine bought a Nic 32 with bolt-on reefing. He took it off and sold it on EBay for £800. If it were me, I'd do the same. Sail handling has to be easy, with a capital E, or sailing isn't fun.

 

[Budgieboy]

Might sound stupid , but was she to windward ? I have a Najad 490 and if you try to get the sail out with winches in a dead calm on a mooring she is a pig , but get her to windward and it's a simple one handed operation , just tug on the furling line and the wind does the rest , selden system ... Ken

 

[Paul_S123]

Might sound stupid , but was she to windward ? I have a Najad 490 and if you try to get the sail out with winches in a dead calm on a mooring she is a pig , but get her to windward and it's a simple one handed operation , just tug on the furling line and the wind does the rest , selden system ... Ken

It was dead calm on a mooring.

 

[Talulah]

I can't quite make out the furling mechanism under the boom. Do you have a close up picture?
A friend has a Moody 38 with In-mast furling. It's fine when operating it with a winch handle at the mast but very difficult doing it from the cockpit.
In the end we changed the winch to a self tailing 16 from an 8 (I think it was non self tailing 8) and that made a huge difference.

 

[dylanwinter]

Lily M, at 26 feet of old Centaur with retro fit roller reefing is one hand coming out and two hands going in - no winches needed

it all goes much more smoothly when head to wind so that the shaking makes everything run more smoothly

flatter than a flat thing though

D

 

[Pyramid]

Hi, not sure whether this will help but our boat is equipped with in mast furling and I have found that prior to pulling out the main pushing the boom up a little or using the topping lift, when the sail is unfurled, results in the foot running out more parallel to the boom and comes out much more easily.
The angle of the out haul is then not nearly as great and the forces more lateral along the boom to the clew, rather than leading up increasingly.

Your photo shows the increasing angle between sail foot and boom and the large angle from the block up to the clew. I imagine the more sail that comes out the greater the force required to winch it out.

Once out and your happy with the amount of sail you want use vang and mainsheet to re tension to flatten or get sail shape as to required conditions.

I have found that I can almost pull the whole lot out without using a winch other than to tension flattening the sail. Works well in reverse too when reducing or putting the main away., simply reverse the process. Release the mainsheet enough to let the boom rise a bit, but keeping control. Release the vang kicker a bit, not too much, keeping the sail flat, then pull in on in haul halyard with the winch whilst tensioning the outhaul as you do so. Goes in flat every time and no issues.
This method seems for me to work well, with winching fairly easy. In fact the Mrs does it!
My boats a double spread rig 36 footer.

It's a great system and I have had no problems, often accounted within these forums.

Si.

 

[dunedin]

Looks like an aftermarket add on reefing system added to the mast (which is fine in itself) but with vertical battens in the MaxiRoach sail.
I am not a furling main expert, but that looks an unusual combination perhaps, and certainly vertical battens help the sail set a lot but will clearly be very different to furl / unfurl than a sail without battens

PS looks like quite a lot of creases in the sail near the top / leech. These plus the battens will be very tight for space in the mast, and going in and out of the slot. Would tightening the battens smooth these out?

 

[Paul_S123]

I can't quite make out the furling mechanism under the boom. Do you have a close up picture?
A friend has a Moody 38 with In-mast furling. It's fine when operating it with a winch handle at the mast but very difficult doing it from the cockpit.
In the end we changed the winch to a self tailing 16 from an 8 (I think it was non self tailing 8) and that made a huge difference.

It has a self tailer on the starboard side with the line that pulls it out, but a non self tailer on the port side which has the line to furl back the sail, which made life a bit harder. Does this pic help.

 

[Paul_S123]

Hi, not sure whether this will help but our boat is equipped with in mast furling and I have found that prior to pulling out the main pushing the boom up a little or using the topping lift, when the sail is unfurled, results in the foot running out more parallel to the boom and comes out much more easily.
The angle of the out haul is then not nearly as great and the forces more lateral along the boom to the clew, rather than leading up increasingly.

Your photo shows the increasing angle between sail foot and boom and the large angle from the block up to the clew. I imagine the more sail that comes out the greater the force required to winch it out.

Once out and your happy with the amount of sail you want use vang and mainsheet to re tension to flatten or get sail shape as to required conditions.

I have found that I can almost pull the whole lot out without using a winch other than to tension flattening the sail. Works well in reverse too when reducing or putting the main away., simply reverse the process. Release the mainsheet enough to let the boom rise a bit, but keeping control. Release the vang kicker a bit, not too much, keeping the sail flat, then pull in on in haul halyard with the winch whilst tensioning the outhaul as you do so. Goes in flat every time and no issues.
This method seems for me to work well, with winching fairly easy. In fact the Mrs does it!
My boats a double spread rig 36 footer.

It's a great system and I have had no problems, often accounted within these forums.

Si.

Thanks for this, so try pulling the boom up on the topping lift first...what maybe 4-6 inches above where it is in the pics?

 

[BoyBlue49]

Probably the whole system needs taking apart and servicing, should be done on a yearly basis, waterproof grease and cleaning parts in warm water to rid salt.
With that reefing system and the Maxi Roach sail there may be very little room for the vertical battens, resulting in a tight squeeze. I suggest this is the problem.
The sail should deploy with just a pull on the outhaul and maybe a little help from a winch to reef. My Seldon system on a 50' Bav was hand in or out in still air.

Agree with Pyramid's observations.

 

[Pyramid]

Yup.
Sail comes out more easily with foot more parallel to the boom. Not too much as the emerging sail needs to remain flattish. And when putting away reverse the process but again keep sail flat and then the whole lot goes in smoothly.
My sail is also the maxi roach with the vertical battens and provided you keep the tension on the outhaul when putting away using the inhaul, the sail wraps nicely into the mast. Ready for next time.
It's a good set up for a single handed.
Si.

 

[jimmcgee]

there is a guy up there were your boat is , he could have a look the next time he is up , names Dylan winters :encouragement:

 

[jac]

Have a Maxi Roach Main on furling ( although not aftermarket) and goes in and out very easily. You really do notice the difference from 1 point of sail to another though - most work best on starboard tack as the slot is slightly biased to give a cleaner lead from that side.

Boom angle is critical - it MUST be at 90 degrees to the mast. Also - check how much backstay tension and halyard tension is on. PO might have whacked on the tension, stretched the sail, got the spar rubbing on something and you now find that the whole set up is binding on itself.

 

[NormanS]

Have a Maxi Roach Main on furling ( although not aftermarket) and goes in and out very easily. You really do notice the difference from 1 point of sail to another though - most work best on starboard tack as the slot is slightly biased to give a cleaner lead from that side.

Boom angle is critical - it MUST be at 90 degrees to the mast. Also - check how much backstay tension and halyard tension is on. PO might have whacked on the tension, stretched the sail, got the spar rubbing on something and you now find that the whole set up is binding on itself.

Provided the sail is loose footed, there is no reason why the boom needs to be at 90 degrees to the mast. I have Kemp/ Selden in-mast, not an add-on, and almost never need to use a winch, for either out or in. I have no battens.
Remember that the luff is effectively in a foil, so doesn't need much luff tension. Too much tension can make it difficult.

 

[Moonbeam]

OK, firstly, don't panic... we have an easyreef system on our boat, they work well and are dead simple, if there is a problem, it will almost certainly be fixable... no need to sell it on ebay

Look at this thread that has excellent advice on how to use it, post number #18 http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?367046-In-Mast-Reefing/page2

Secondly, as budgieboy says, if it was not into wind/just from starboard or there was no wind the day you tried, it will be harder to roll out.

Thirdly, as mentioned, it may need servicing (no grease required though.... just clean with water and the slightest dusting of dry silicone lube if you must). Ours got stiff last year, I totally dismantled and removed the furling drum and found a hex bit that had fallen down inside the system from the year before (i always wandered where that had got to)... that didn't help... I also realised that due to wear over time, the bearings had made a grove in the bottom part seat of the system so in effect, the drum and seat were rotating on each other with the balls doing nothing useful to ease the process, I fixed this by making/adding a washer (cut from a snare drum skin) so the ball bearings ran on top of this and not in the groove... I took some pics at the time, will try and post tomorrow

 

[ip485]

The previous post seems very knowledgeable and rig specific.

All I can add is mine is larger (50 footer) and Selden, and vertical battens, and runs very smoothly. The outhaul is on a powered winch but it will pull out by hand, and in fact if a little wind fllls the sail literally run out, it is that easy, or should be I guess.

 

[PeteCooper]

Has the mast been set up with pre-bend?
I'll have a cursory look in passing tomorrow.

 

[pvb]

I'd also bet that some long-overdue maintenance might well make a big difference. Behind-mast systems such as EasyReef are basically very simple and should work easily. I fitted a Bamar behind-mast furler on a previous boat, and it always worked easily.

 

[Tranona]

There are 4 main causes of stiffness in in mast systems. Stiffness in the mechanism itself, which can be dirt, wear or overtight luff tension. difficulty with the sail exiting or entering the luff slot. Friction in the control lines. Problems with the outhaul, either not sliding along the boom or incorrect angle of pull on the clew. The clew looks very high in relation to the boom so the outhaul is not pulling the sail out, but pulling it down.

If you slack the outhaul off completely so the slide is at the rear of the boom, then position the boat with the wind 45 degrees or so off the starboard bow, the sail should come out on its own. If it does not the problem is in the furling mechanism or the sail itself. Worth also taking the sail off and checking that the furling mechanism runs smoothly on its own. As already suggested, raise the topping lift so that the foot of the sail is nearer parallel to the boom.