In command of a mobo or raggie, but not in control ?

[sarabande]

The plane crash in San Francisco raises an uncomfortable spectre, which I suspect many here have experienced.

It seems that the pilot doing the flying was senior to the pilot (a training pilot BTW) in the right hand seat, and there is a suspicion that the Korean culture of deference to age and rank may have inhibited the non-flying pilot from speaking out when/if he noticed that the plane was not in the correct approach profile (too low, too slow).

Translating that into the more two-dimensional environment of our sailing or motoring, I wonder how many times people with good solid experience and/or qualifications (the two are not synonymous)have sailed with an owner of less experience or paperwork, and have noticed a decision or event which if uncorrected could put the boat at risk.


I did a delivery several years ago from West Mersea to Breskens in a motor sailer owned by a successful young hotshot lawyer. He was pretty clued up generally, but made the self-deceiving assumptions (for which many of us have fallen) that because a light appeared in a certain direction, that was the light he was expecting - despite slightly different characteristics. We resolved the issue in a friendly way - but I'm not going to say how.


My question is really in two parts:

1 Has anyone been in the position where the owner/skipper has made a decision which is wrong, and likely to imperil the boat ?

2 How do you bring that fact to the boss ?

and a corollary

How do you as a boat owner or skipper ensure that crew speak up when they are uncertain what you mean, or believe you are making a mistake ?


The decision culture on boats seems to be different from the multi-member team approach in large aircraft. Is this really so, and should it be a matter of concern ?

 

[ribrage]

If you watch national geographical channel there are several flights that have come down where the junior pilot has recognised the problem but not spoken up , this is prevalent in some cultures.

If you want feed back from crew its best not to shout at them when everything goes wrong , a little bit of humble pie goes down well from time to time

 

[old_salt]

I navigated for 20 years on a friends boat and in all that time we had a very good working relationship if he on deck on the helm and suspected anything was not as we had it in the sail plan he would bring it to my attention and we would use all our combined knowledge to asses the situation and resolve it.
Like "sh** you are doing it again ignoring your Nav I've got it all here and there ant enough water, Ok then be it on your head".
Mind like Kawasaki at some time we have hit every rock in the Irish sea around Anglesey and certainly the ones in HH bay racing round the cans.
We even managed to touch the rock in between the Skerries islands on one occasion short cutting (on the skippers orders)
I kept telling him not enough water thought there but he kept insisting he had been though before and I said not at this depth we haven't then judder judder

 

[oldbilbo]

There are numerous questions for us raised by Sara's topical example. What is the nature of the 'culture of deference' among UK yachties?

Do we tend to assume the guy whose boat we're on knows better than everyone else? And even if he clearly doesn't, should we pipe up? When? How?
What's the agreement between us when we-plural go out for a day's sailing? Is one of us 'Master Under God' simply because s/he owns a chunk of the hull?
Where do the responsibilities lie among us? How do we discharge them so that the agreed objective is achieved and we all get to go home unharmed?
Is the boat run as a vague democracy, when whoever voices the loudest view prevails?
Is there an acknowledged 'person in charge' who consults, considers and decides?
Do we subordinate our freedom of expression, judgement and opinion when we climb aboard, keeping our own counsel, to the unknown vagaries of a new boat owner?
How does a skilled crew member best support a less-skilled/experienced owner?

About one hundred years ago the universal culture of 'deference to authority' got Shackleton's ship 'Endurance' beset in the ice and her crew put at hazard. A little later, millions died facing industrial warfare in the Flanders trenches. Those who protested incompetence were shot. Those who didn't protest their leaders' incompetence were shot... or exploded... or gassed....

It's little wonder that single-handing is growing in popularity.

 

[pmagowan]

On my boat I am the 'up above' skipper and my sister is the 'down below' skipper. It works quite well. If anyone was uncomfortable I would want them to pipe up rather than shut up (until it becomes annoying of course).

 

[Woodlouse]

As long as the ship or those aboard are not in danger I tend to not question orders when on board.

If I make a suggestion it will generally because there is a safer or easier way to do things and by and large it doesn't cause any issues.

Occasionally however you get skippers who take any suggestion as an attack on their authority and competence. I tend not to sail with that sort more than once.

 

[CFarr]

Occasionally however you get skippers who take any suggestion as an attack on their authority and competence. I tend not to sail with that sort more than once.

On the obverse of that view, I've sailed with a friend who will eventually accept my decision, but not until after I've had to persist quite strongly.
Not about anything difficult either, just things like how we're going to pick up a mooring buoy!
When I as skipper have explained the process to a rookie crew the last thing I want is to be questioned relentlessly until the crew don't know what the hell is going on.
I don't sail with him anymore

 

[jerrytug]

There are numerous questions for us raised by Sara's topical example. What is the nature of the 'culture of deference' among UK yachties?

Do we tend to assume the guy whose boat we're on knows better than everyone else? And even if he clearly doesn't, should we pipe up? When? How?
What's the agreement between us when we-plural go out for a day's sailing? Is one of us 'Master Under God' simply because s/he owns a chunk of the hull?
Where do the responsibilities lie among us? How do we discharge them so that the agreed objective is achieved and we all get to go home unharmed?
Is the boat run as a vague democracy, when whoever voices the loudest view prevails?
Is there an acknowledged 'person in charge' who consults, considers and decides?
Do we subordinate our freedom of expression, judgement and opinion when we climb aboard, keeping our own counsel, to the unknown vagaries of a new boat owner?
How does a skilled crew member best support a less-skilled/experienced owner?

About one hundred years ago the universal culture of 'deference to authority' got Shackleton's ship 'Endurance' beset in the ice and her crew put at hazard. A little later, millions died facing industrial warfare in the Flanders trenches. Those who protested incompetence were shot.

It's little wonder that single-handing is growing in popularity.

Good post,some chewy questions. "The Mind of the Sailor" by P.Noble and R.Hogben is a very cheap and accessible book on these hard issues which the RYA, and T.C. and similar authors completely ignore. It should be required read and digest for the YM syllabus I reckon. All the best Jerry

 

[Stemar]

Occasionally however you get skippers who take any suggestion as an attack on their authority and competence. I tend not to sail with that sort more than once.

There was an admiral like that, once http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_naval_disaster_of_1707

 

[prv]

"The Mind of the Sailor" by P.Noble and R.Hogben is a very cheap and accessible book on these hard issues which the RYA, and T.C. and similar authors completely ignore. It should be required read and digest for the YM syllabus I reckon.

Ta. Found for the price of a pint on Amazon, so ordered it.

Pete

 

[oldbilbo]

Me, too. But where can you get a pint today for £0.01 plus postage....?

 

[maxcampbell]

I took a guy I thought was far more experienced than me for a 2 day trip, just down the coast, anchor, back next day. I disagreed with lots of his advice, but deferred, because he's got loads of miles, yachtmaster, etc, etc.

On the way back I realised we'd gone against the tide in both directions, then he was on the helm and completely botched an impromptu MOB drill trying & failing to recover my hat. I'd deferred so often that he "took control" of the 3rd crew member, who'd joined us on the second day, and it was only when he advised creeping up to a gap in a barrier, rather than approaching from a position which gave decent visibility, and gave the crewman orders for tacking, despite my contrary requests, that I had to really assert myself - "Sorry, Jack (let's call him), this is my boat, I am in charge, and we're doing X". He went quite sulky.

 

[prv]

Me, too. But where can you get a pint today for £0.01 plus postage....?

You can get a pint for £2.81 in a few places, even in the South. Doubt you'll find anyone to post it to you, though

I always immediately add the "postage" cost to the headline cost and consider the total as the purchase price. The "postage" often bears little relation to the actual cost of delivery, so it's really just an arbitrary split of the price into two parts for reasons of custom and practice. These book sellers aren't really selling books for a penny, but Amazon fixes the standard delivery price at a level above the actual cost, leaving the seller their margin.

Pete

 

[onesea]

Allot of this comes down to approach, I often find that instead of saying "your going to fast", "you are doing 6 knots" and if its kept up "you know you are still doing 6 knots".

Or asking why something is being done that way, another way before getting into the situation is asking what the plan is before the start...

Well they are the methods that people tend to use on me...

 

[PabloPicasso]

There are numerous questions for us raised by Sara's topical example. What is the nature of the 'culture of deference' among UK yachties?

Do we tend to assume the guy whose boat we're on knows better than everyone else? And even if he clearly doesn't, should we pipe up? When? How?
What's the agreement between us when we-plural go out for a day's sailing? Is one of us 'Master Under God' simply because s/he owns a chunk of the hull?
Where do the responsibilities lie among us? How do we discharge them so that the agreed objective is achieved and we all get to go home unharmed?
Is the boat run as a vague democracy, when whoever voices the loudest view prevails?
Is there an acknowledged 'person in charge' who consults, considers and decides?
Do we subordinate our freedom of expression, judgement and opinion when we climb aboard, keeping our own counsel, to the unknown vagaries of a new boat owner?
How does a skilled crew member best support a less-skilled/experienced owner?

About one hundred years ago the universal culture of 'deference to authority' got Shackleton's ship 'Endurance' beset in the ice and her crew put at hazard. A little later, millions died facing industrial warfare in the Flanders trenches. Those who protested incompetence were shot.

It's little wonder that single-handing is growing in popularity.

+1. But best not to hang your crew if single handed

 

[PabloPicasso]

Reasonable humans will listen if they and their boat is at risk. The duffers, as Arthur ransom suggested, are best drowned

 

[JohnGC]

How do you as a boat owner or skipper ensure that crew speak up when they are uncertain what you mean, or believe you are making a mistake ?

I explain that I would rather be told of a possible problem several times rather than not at all. This applies most obviously to keeping a good lookout. I also tell my crew they can ask me how and why at any time. I only invite friends I'm sure of. So far so good.

"Experience" is often discussed in these forums as if it is the equivalent of competence. They are not the same, I see drivers on the road everyday with a very great deal of experience yet they are incompetent drivers (in my opinion).

 

[jsl]

As skipper, I have been faced with an interestingly direct challenge from a well-certificated crew, old enough to be my father: 'You can't go between those two buoys; they are north and south of the danger.' It took a bit of nerve to stick to my correct reading of their cardinal marks. He was tired, and his mind had gone into neutral. But I did not mind his speaking up, and I certainly thought twice before pressing on.

 

[richardsnowstar]

As crew I sailed with various skippers and some did have the view that as the boat owner they knew everything and were always right. But I learnt that there are often more than one way to do things and crew do have valuable experience. So when I bought a boat I try to keep this in mind. I try to make it clear to the crew that I am not omnipotent and welcome suggestions, particularly related to safety. I also try to use the experience of the crew and learn from them. However there are occasions when the crew need to know that you are in charge and they need to take instruction without debate on occasions. This can be a balancing act.

 

[saltylegs]

On one memorable night passage with a crew that included at least 1 YM examiner, 3 YM instructors and various YM's, I as helm (with no papers at the time) was instructed to tack away from the approaching "steaming" light.
Turned out it was the moon.