In case finesse owners can't help,,perhaps you can

[gary3029]

In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

I have a 24ft carvel boat. Has a lifting plate going through a long cast iron ballast keel and this is where the problem lies. I am having problems around the base of the lifting plate box inside the cabin. The wood is soaked and becoming damaged, thankfully it is seawater and the wood is iroko so damage minimal SO FAR!!! The boat is used in shallow water for very light sailing and I have to say have not used the lifting plate since I have had the boat. The boat has small iroko bilge keels. Can I remove the lifting plate and seal the hole in the cast iorn keel so removing the lifting plate housing in the cabin? This would mean the wood in this area would then be dry. I know my class of boat ( a Finesse) was produced without a lifting plate and with bilge keels. Is this going to be a major undertaking?

 

[Guest]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

Hello Gary,

Firstly I think you mean a clinker built hull? If you are talking about fitting bilge keels that will have to support the weight of the boat when drying out, like for instance a Westerly Centaur? I would say that is a total non starter.

The hull would not take that kind of localised stress. If you are talking about bilge keels that will act a bit like beaching legs on a fin keeled boat, ie, made about 3 inches shorter than the draught, and there just to more or less keep the boat upright, when drying out, I would say, yes, do-able. However, I would want to increase the amount / area of timbers inside the boat that support these bilge keels as much as possible, to alleviate and spread any localised stress on the hull.

Something you might want to consider though is this. It might pay you in the long run to keep your boat as original as possible, there is quite a following for these boats, and I feel you will de-value your boat by doing what you are suggesting, also possibly make it much harder to sell, should you wish to at some later date. Prospective purchasers may well want to sail the boat on summat other than thin water?

If it was me, I would be inclined to think very hard about rebuilding the keel box, and servicing the drop keel and it's attendant mechanism. Depending on the condition of the drop keel, maybe have a new one cut and galvanised, new pivot pin etc?

I have re-built a couple of keel boxes in my time, and with modern water proof glues and sealants, it's not that difficult.

 

[tillergirl]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

I think I would urge you NOT to do it. I am on the verge of removing TG's bilge keels next spring. Reason - even with support internally to remove the stress that exists, the pressure on the whole set up is obvious - the seams below the keels work all season and whilst not a problem in terms of excessive pumping, by the end of the season there is generally a small persistent leak somewhere. I feel also they act as a brake and on the wind in a seaway at speed (or what passes for speed for me) the whoomping and so on makes it clear that this an efficiently set up. And then there's the leeway. I think your plate will give you better performance.

 

[oldharry]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

I am not sure whether Tgs feeling the bilge keels act as a brake are because they are badly designed, or the innate prejudice of fin keelers against the Bilge keel concept!

Obviously in this case the keels appear to be set up wrong, if they are causing all that movement and leaking, and either need beefing up, or removing.

I had a 24 footer with wooden bilge keels, slow, ungainly, and not too good to windward. I replaced them with steel plate keels, gained nearly 1.5kts, and pointed much better.

But I totally agree, a clinker hull will not tolerate the addition of Bilge keels unless ALL the stress and load is taken back to the main keel, and can be spread along it.

On plywood bilge keel yachts, the keel loading was taken over nearly 3/4 the length of the boat on heavy stringers, and even so I have seen the plates forced up into the hull when there was insufficient bracing back to the main keel.

A Far better solution with a boat like ther Finesse if you want to get rid of the lifting plate, is to add a false keel, extending the depth of the main keel. This ensures grounding loads are evenly spread down the hull. Bilge runners can be added to stop her tipping too far over aground. Working out the necessary depth is simply a matter of finding the area of the existing drop keel, then working out how much deeper the keel needs to be to acheive the same area.

I did this to a Bell Seamew some years ago, and apart from being a bit slower in stays (which was no bad thing for a single hander!) found she sailed just as well as she had with the drop keel. The only time performance fell off was beating into strong winds and rough water, when she didnt grip quite so well.

 

[tillergirl]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

Oh I'm sure its bad design not an innate prejudice - I'm an East Coaster! The bad design is illustrated, inter alia, by the fact that it is clear that there is more resistance from the starboard bilge keel than the port one. But I do think what needs to be done internally to cope with the stresses is not to be regarded lightly and the shape, position etc of bilge keels needs some thinking about.

 

[Guest]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

FAO TG and Old Harry, I was recalling to mind a few minutes ago a friend of mine that had a nice little Johnson & Jago 21 footer, many years ago, lovely wee boaty she was, but she sailed like a bathtub, I was convinced it was because someone had fitted quite stout bilge keels to her at some point, probably to keep her upright when taking the ground, which we all have to do around here.

During a conversation with him I suggested that I thought he would be better off, removing the bilge keels and using beaching legs, seeing as how he has a mooring in a nice quiet spot. He wasn't very keen on the idea, more to do with the work involved, I seem to recall.

Anyway, quite a while later he gave me a bell and said he had been thinking about what I had said, but didn't feel he could tackle the job on his own and would I be prepared to give him a hand?

To cut this tale down to size, we did the job and took her for a sea trial, lovely day, 3 - 4 and she sailed like a witch, the smile on his face was a picture! I kind of enjoyed meself too.

The trouble I think, came from the fact that she already had a large wetted area, (for her size) and the bilge keels just added to it thus increasing drag, also of course she was not really a bilge keeler, but a tripple keeler, and in my opinion, I think that unless a boat is designed to be just that, by someone who knows what they are about eg Achilles 24, you are on to a looser.

 

[FinesseChris]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

As a Finesse owner I sympathise.
Have you contacted the owners's group? There is a website.
As far as bilge keels go, some boats have had the mod you propose (see last months Classic Boat) and some were built with no c/plate to start with.
I have bilge plates, and they may well slow her up, but I'm keeping the c/plate + bilge plate set up.
I will be having to deal with the keel case as you are about to do, so keep us informed how it goes.
That's after I have replaced half the deck....
Good luck
Chris

 

[tillergirl]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

Well that hits the spot. TG is a triple keeler with a quite wide central keel. Excessive wetted area is definitely a valid point. I can't see TG's windward performance to be great whatever I do because the central keel is wide so I think it will never do that aerofoil stuff well. However, I have convinced myself that any loss of leeway prevention will be offset by reduction of drag. I may be deluding myself of course but I'm actually in a good position to experiment since I can upbolt the bilge keels in about 10 minutes. Making what's left watertight will take a little longer but I am considering making a 'runner' with its base the dimensions of the bilge keel flange. Unbolt the one, bolt up the runner with some goo and see what happens. If I go sideways, I can ungoo the runner and put the bilge keels back.

 

[Guest]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

My guess is that you wont go sideways all that much, but I am not sure what TG is? If she has a long straight keel at a reasonable draft, then she should sail quite happily, she may slip a bit on the wind, but I get the impression that she aint a round the cans wizzo racer? so does it matter? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[gary3029]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

Ok I am now confused!! I don't want to add bilge keels to enable it to sit and dry out, the boat is always off the bottom....unless I have a problem!! The boat already has two small iroko keels built in the design. If I remove the lifting plate will this cause a drastic problem to the boat? Yes you never know what the future will hold, but I see me ending my days with this boat so I am unlikely to ever sell it. If I don't have to add further additions to the bilge keels already in place because I have removed the lifting plate then that is okay by me. This keel box is the one weak area on my boat because you have great difficulty doing proper yearly maintence to a critical area because of poor access and I don't use the thing!! For those who know poole harbour you don't have many place to lower a lifting keel!!The short of it is if I remove the lifting plate will this have a issue with regards to safetyof the boat in the sort of conditions I go out in? Speed don't bother me...if it did I would have bought a motorboat.

 

[Guest]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I am now confused!!The short of it is if I remove the lifting plate will this have a issue with regards to safetyof the boat in the sort of conditions I go out in? Speed don't bother me...if it did I would have bought a motorboat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're confused? how do you think the rest of us feel? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Ok, if you are never gonna set foot outside of Poole Harbour, not ever, never, no way, then it probably wont matter what you do. Don't ask me to be more specific, because as I cannot have any control over what you do with your boat, I can't be.

If you do decide to get rid of the drop keel, it might be an idea to stash it somewhere, so that it is available at a later date?

By removing the Swing Keel, you will inevitably alter your boats CofG.........may prove to be a touch more tender, but if you are absolutely certain, that you will limit your sailing to that as you describe, then fine, it shouldn't present much of a problem. Just think it is a bit of a shame is all, because you are making less of, and not more of what is a pretty nice boat /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But it is your boat, so you must decide. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Blueboatman]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

I am not familiar with the Finesse 24 but have sailed quite a lot on a friends Finesse 21 who had the exact same problem..Upon speaking to the boatyard they simply removed the quadrant around the base of the keelbox,lifted and rebedded the box and then new pieces of Iroko quadrant,all done in sikaflex or similar. As far as I know that put paid to the water ingress.

 

[Guest]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

That's what I would do Tim, but I don't think he wants to go there??? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[gary3029]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

Ok after what has been said here I will try and rebed the box over winter and see what happens next season. I suppose it hasn't been done for 35 years so I need to give it a chance. Thanks for the advice....what is the best sealant I could use for the job?

 

[Guest]

Re: In case finesse owners can\'t help,,perhaps you can

I think you have made a wise decision /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif, After thoroughly drying everything out and replacing any timber that needs it, I would use sikaflex or something similar. maybe someone has some other suggestions?