Im new to sailing! Help!

[matnoo]

Hello!
I have been lucky enough to be given a boat by my uncle, its a 23ft bermudan rigged sailing boat, it was custom built about 10 years ago, to cross the atlantic, so im told its bombproof, there arent even portholes bigger than CD size on it.

He will be my consultant and teacher in reovating and sailing it, hes been a skipper all his life, so im confident of his ability to do both! But ive got a few things i want to find out seperate from him(that i cant find in any of my 4 sailing manuals!) as id like him to see ive been researching this myself.

1. Moorings, Im after the cheapest possible (arent we all!), which thanks to my location (the midlands!), can be ANYWHERE in the bottom two thirds of of britain. Any suggestions?

2.I have come from a long winter climbing and mountaineering career (forced to give up because of knee problems), so i have a head start on knots, first aid, weather conditions, and navigation, and have a 2 full sets of breathable waterproofs. Has anyone else come from mountaineering, how do they relate? (and does anyone want to buy £3000 worth of ice axes tents and crampons!!)

3. I know this is an expensive sport, Im prepaired for that to some extent by climbing - £12 for a bit of metal stings! But realistically, once i have a fixed boat, whats it going to cost to run, insurance, mooring etc. (clearly, im not after an exact figure here).

4.Whats the best bit about sailing, for you i mean?

5. How do i attach a file/pic! of it? It says 'You may attach a file to this post while editing.'


Im hoping boat forum people arent the same as climbing forum people, as id get a grilling for posting this on UKclimbing.com or somthing! I dont know a lot, thats true, but i can and will learn.


Thanks for any pointers,

Mat

PS EDITED: cheers for the picture tip guys!

 

[cliff]

This seems like a troll but what the hell I've nothing better to do at the minute......

1) do not write off north of the border for moorings, with sheapo flights to Prestwick the Clyde is open to you.

2) your mountaineering jackets etc will do for the time being but you will look a little out of place at the yacht club bar (don't use them myself - full of posers and apart from that the bar on RB is WELL stocked). As for you navigational skills - what you are talking about is orienteering not marine navigation - two different animals so back to the begining and start again.

3) Running costs vary from owner to owner, Insurance circa £200~300 depending on where you go, moorings from circa £300pa to 2~5K depending on where and what mooring you want.

4) Getting away from the arseholes and posers I have to deal with day to day.

5) Search for shipswoofy's posts and follow his write up but basically you need to post the url for the pic.

[image]enter url[/image]

--------------------

"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"

 

[Otter]

Welcome to the Forum.

A swinging mooring (boat sits on a bouy) will cost £250 in Kent - April to October inclusive. A berth in the most densely packed parts of the south coast will be about £5,000 pa. There is every shade of Marina and mooring in between. Either decide on a location and pay what that costs or decide on a budget and put your boat in the best location for that budget.

Insurance will be about £250 pa.

The best bit about sailing is the sailing - last Sunday, 10 hours of force 3 and 4 and a hot sun. Plus we caught our first fish of the season. Second is the complete independance and freedom, if I bu**er it up it's my fault. A close third is the exploration.

Good luck.

 

[Twister_Ken]

"1. Moorings, Im after the cheapest possible (arent we all!), which thanks to my location (the midlands!), can be ANYWHERE in the bottom two thirds of of britain. Any suggestions?"

Not sure coz I'm somehat confined to the S Coast coz of geography, but you might look at South Wales/Bristol Channel.

3. I know this is an expensive sport, Im prepaired for that to some extent by climbing - £12 for a bit of metal stings! But realistically, once i have a fixed boat, whats it going to cost to run, insurance, mooring etc. (clearly, im not after an exact figure here).

Insurance and moorings you've sussed. Add in annual maintenance - lift ashore (there are ways of avoiding this), antifouling, stuff to be replaced/refurbed (there always is). Standing rigging (wire) has a life span, in insurance terms if not in real life of about 10 years and so needs occ. replacement. Ditto running rigging (string) although that's not an insurance requirement. Sails eventually wear out and need replacing. Batteries have a limited life, no matter how well you look after them. Charts need renewing from time to time, even if you are careful about corrections (only saints are). Electricity + copper wire + sea air = green slime, so electrics usaully need a bit of fettling from time to time. Engine will need servicing annually at least, but you can learn to DIY that. Maybe £1000 a year for a 23' which will leave a bit in the pot for more major items when they fall due.

4.Whats the best bit about sailing, for you i mean?
Probably that while doing it, it makes me forget whatever's going on in the rest of my life.

5. How do i attach a file/pic! of it? It says 'You may attach a file to this post while editing.'
Dunno how that works. Best thing is to park a pic on a website somewhere, than paste its URL into your message somewhere using the the formula (image)http:whatever(/image) but subbing square brackets for round ones and using your images url between the brackets. Image should be .jpg, and please, not too big.

 

[Bodach na mara]

As Cliff says, don't write off the north, especially Clyde area. Largs marina (and possible Kip as well) have a cheap deal for boats of your size and you may be able to get a berth for under £1000. This is a full access berth. None of your "two hours each side of high water" stuff here.

We also had ten hours of force 2-3 on Saturday (well there was a bit of force 0 variable as well) with enough sun to cause a worrying burn before I realised it.

For swinging moorings, the costs vary, but the cost is in the region of £300 per year unless you join a club scheme, buy your own tackle and get it laid, when the cost falls to about £100 (including the Crown Estates Robbery charge.)

Best bits? Being in charge of a bit of your own life, free to go almost where you wish. Dreaming about ways to improve the boat. Looking at other boats in harbours for ideas. Meeting new friends and being able to escape if they turn out to be posers. Welcome to the BBBAFS (band of boating brothers and a few sisters)

 

[Sadlermike]

My condolences. I was also reduced to yachting when injuries forced me to retire from climbing eleven years ago.

As far as costs are concerned, there is no comparison. As other people have stated, there are too many variables to make it possible to suggest an annual cost but it will be way beyond anything you have spent as a climber.

Most of the outdoor clothing you have been using as a mountaineer will be perfectly adequate although a specialist heavy weather yachting jacket will be a lot better than a mountaineering one.

I expect you will find that your weather knowledge will stand you in good stead but navigation skills are quite different.

The best thing about sailing? Eventually, with luck, you will feel at home in the ocean environment as you are in the mountains and night watches hundreds of miles from land will compare with remote hills.

My advice is to try not to make comparisons. If you do, you will jump overboard.

 

[bilbobaggins]

You're welcome. But be aware - sailing is a disease, and there's no known cure!

I had to give up my climbing in 1971, also due to knackered knees, and was lucky in that my employer at the time ( HM Queen ) owned a 22' sailing boat just a few miles away, that I was encouraged to start to learn on. My 'hills' background helped a fair bit, but there is a huge amount of new and different stuff to hoist in and learn to use. I'm still on that learning curve.....

You'll find there are others on here who have similar stories to tell, so you'll be among friends.

It's certainly true that a well-built and well-equipped 23' boat could be taken almost anywhere, but that requires deep experience and considerable seamanship, to make the decisions right every time when it really matters. And that requires an apprenticeship, just as in going on the hill.

You'll be aware that going on the Derbyshire Dales, then North Wales and The Lakes, then the Scottish hills in summer, does not fully equip you to deal with, say, the Scottish Hills in winter, or the big walls around Chamonix and the Bernese Oberland. Sailing needs a graduated approach, too.

And there are plenty of people to help. However, just as on the hill, everyone has an opinion, but not everyone's opinion is right for you. Listen, watch, and use your own judgement.

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[alant]

"I was also reduced to yachting" /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Presumably this is an altitude comment, not a scathing remark likely to cause a disturbance in the RYS bar!

 

[jeanne]

Good luck with the new adventure! The best bits about sailing are the people who do it , the places you get to visit, and the sense of achievement you can get from it. You don´t have to do mammoth trips to get this, when you are learning , it comeswith every good outing.
The cheapest moorings I know that are easily accessible to the midlands are drying mud berths at Pill, near Bristol on the river Avon, run by the Portishead Cruising Club. It is a challenging area to sail, but you and your uncle will get a lot of help from the friendly lot in the club. Because of the strong tides, everyone has to sail to much the same places at much the same time, so it is easy for a beginner to sail in company with those more experienced. I joined ´to get a cheap mooring´, and the club soon became a big part of my life!

 

[David_Jersey]

Welcome aboard!

One thing I would suggest is that as this is your first boat (and espeically because it was free, rather than having been chosen to try and meet your exact needs) is not to overcapitalise on her. After a season (or 2) you will have a very good idea of what you want / need from a boat and odds on that whatever you start out with will be "not quite right" for YOU (of course nothing ever suits 100% /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) and you will probably be looking to sell her / move on to something else.

Obviously you should not scrimp on an safety related items and making her seaworthy and no reason why you cannot spend money on "shiny toys" (esp electronics etc) which you can just transfer to your next boat, but no reason to spend money on "improvements" and extensive refurbishment (elbow grease and a bit of thought goes a long way) that will not add much (if any) value to her when you sell, let alone start spending on stuff like new sails or a respray. What you basically have is a cheap (ish) boat (and nothing wrong with that!) but spending £000's on her will not make her more valuable - albeit perhaps a bit easier to sell.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Loads of good advice above.....

Best bit about sailing?.......

The people..... we meet really really nice people week in week out.... have made many good friends, some of whom we have little doubt will reach that much valued status to us of becoming life long friends, and found a real sense of comraderie that you will recognise as similar to that amongst the serious climbers...... united in a shared obsession (and I use that word advisedly!)

 

[chuckaduck]

Best bits are going out when weather is good and coming back when weather is bad

 

[jimi]

Just to reieterate advice given to you on UKC, do a dinghy sailing course to learn to sail, nightschool for the nav/cr etc and a day skipper yachting course and then get the miles in. Good luck

 

[akegustavson]

Moraira in June 2006

Small pleasure boat owners debarred from the European Alternative Dispute Resolution System.

Unscrupulous Insurance Companies debar their boat-owning clients from the Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) scheme that have been developed across Europe for the protection of the Consumers.
This is done by taking advantage of an article that can be found in the Insurance Laws in many countries and which classifies pleasure-boat insurance as a “high risk”.
The ADR system does not include “high risk” (Spanish Law 50/1980, Art.107.2).

These insurance companies are therefore in the habit of refusing to take part in dispute resolutions out-of-court (ADR). That leaves no other alternative to the discontented client with a damaged boat, but to take legal proceedings against the insurance company.
This procedure is often very costly, lengthy and tiring.
Most people give in and pocket their pride.

Pleasure-boat owners, with their boats insured in these companies, are not aware of their weak position until they have a disagreement with the company. Then they discover they do not even have a right to “legal aid” included in their boat-insurance.
“Legal aid” usually is included in a common “Consumer Insurance” (car- house- or travel-insurance, etc.)
EU has excluded the right to have a “Legal Expenses Insurance” included in a common “Pleasure-boat Insurance” in respect of disputes or risks arising out of the use of sea-going vessels in its Directive 87/344/CEE.

The issue of insurance-disputes hereby seems to be assigned to the Maritime Laws, which are certainly not as consumer-friendly as the European Consumer Laws.
Many of the Rules in the Maritime Laws have their origin in the circumstances prevailing in the 19th century, when it was a trend amongst unscrupulous shipowners to cheat insurance companies by overvalue and overloading their ships and cargoes, and which resulted in the famous “Plimsoll-Rules”.
Now it appears as if unscrupulous insurance companies adopt a trend of cheating small pleasure-boat owners by the use of paragraphs referring to the Maritime Laws.
Pleasure boat owners in general believe that a pleasure boat-insurance is as Consumer Insurance and not as Maritime Insurance in the sense of the Maritime Laws.
That’s why the pleasure-boat owners are easy targets for these companies.
And also why these companies top the insurance companies “League of Reclamations.”

The following narrated story is a true example of this modern form of piracy.

A small Swedish pleasure-boat got stranded on a beach on Ibiza in a sudden storm.
The Insurance Company, which under the veil of discretion will be named MALFÉ, was contacted immediately and promised prompt salvage actions.
Salvage was then delayed 6 days, during which the boat bumped against the rocks by every wave and received more damage. The boat was then salvaged and transported in a very unprofessional manner to a boat-yard chosen by MALFÉ and received still more damage.

MAPFRE could now be sure that the repair costs would exceed ¾ of the insured value and thus be considered as “total constructive loss”. In addition MALFÉ suddenly considered the boat underrated. In spite of MALFÉ´s own valuation of the 30 year old boat a few years earlier.
When the tender for the repairs finally arrived from the MALFÉ-picked boat-yard, it was impudently high priced. A comparison with a well-reputed boat-yard on the Spanish mainland showed that the repairs could be done on the Mainland for less than half the price, and for well under ¾ of the insured value.

The boat-owner felt as caught in a trap.
The MALFÉ-picked boat-yard demanded an absurd sum for releasing the boat from the boat-yard.
The transport from Ibiza to the boat-yard on the Mainland would be very expensive.
So MALFÉ´s offer of indemnity for “total constructive loss” was reluctantly accepted.

MALFÉ then made huge deductions for insured but undamaged equipment (rafts, autohelm, VHF etc.) and told the boat-owner that he was still owner of the boat and responsible for all pending and future costs from the MALFÉ-picked boat-yard.

The indemnity was appealed against to MALFÉ two times. Also appealed to the Spanish consumer organisation OMIC and to Dirección General de Seguros (DGS). All in vain.

A few weeks later the boat-owner visited Ibiza by car to pick up the insured but undamaged equipment (raft, autohelm, VHF etc.), which MALFÉ had deducted from the indemnity. When he came to the boat-yard, the MALFÉ-picked boat-yard owner prevented him from picking up his belongings from the boat.

Enlightened by these experiences the boat owner now donated the boat to a Navigation School on the mainland in exchange for the pending and rising demands from the boat-yard.

Besides these demands and being repaired, the boat has now received a total renovation, an osmosis-treatment, a full painting job, and a complete official survey for a Sea-Worthiness-Certificate and a Spanish Matriculation.
From a reliable source, the total expenses for all these jobs, including the surveys, will by far not come up to the total costs demanded from the Swedish boat owner- for the repairs alone.

Boat owners and others ought to be able to draw their own conclusions from this true story and may receive more details from the editor of this publication.

Every year about 1500 pleasure boats meet with such grave accidents in Spanish waters that they have to be rescued by the Spanish Lifeboat Service, Salvamento Maritimo. Many more have grave accidents (with estimated repair costs near ¾ of insured value), in harbours and ashore without appearing in the statistics of Salvamento Marítimo.

The motive of this article is to warn pleasure-boat owners of the perils in their boat insurance, if the insurance company considers the insurance as a “high risk”.
Hopefully also to initiate a debate on the subject.

Don Quijote del Mar (76)

 

[matnoo]

Cheers all

this has all been really helpful

(C:

Mat