I'm going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

Re: I\'m going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

Im not an expert in any way but I think the Colregs /TSS rules work on 3 levels.

1,A small vessell crossing a TSS should not impede a large vessel using the TSS Lane.

2,If despite the above a collision situation emerges then the colregs apply.

3,In the event that the vessel that should give way doesnt do enough to avoid a collision then both vessells are obliged to take whatever action neccessary to avoid a collision.


Its difficult when ships make course alterations which throw your plans out of the window but you have to consider that the ship a mile or two from you may be altering course to avoid/overtake another ship thats hidden over your horizon from 1m above sealevel in a yacht.
 
Re: I\'m going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

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[I don't give a rats ass about the colregs!



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Most sensible sailors try to keep out of the way of ships but these threads are informative to those who want to learn and understand the collision regs. I am genuinly interested in the correct course of action and the preferred course of action. I have only been sailing big boats for about 8 years and these forums have been a great source of information especially when I thought I knew the answer but was wrong.

In your case as you have been doing it for ever, and clearly state you don't give a rats arse for the col regs and are not prepared to make any meaningful contribution can I respectfully suggest you shut up.

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On the contrary my son! The contribution I made was very meaningful! it is the bottom line.................all the waffle, (sorry, must mind me manners)............blather....(sorry doin' it again)............discussion, are that's the one aint it? That ya'll doin' on here, is just so much theory, it's a whole different kettle of fish out on the ogin. I mean, if you is agreeing with me that staying out of the way of ships is a good idea, and by doing so you will stay out of trouble (assuming a modicum of seamanship skills and common sense here).....what's all the blather.....(Damn doin' it again) discussion for???

Other than to make a few arm chair sailor men look ever so clever and knowledgable? You carry on though boy, but none of it will make ya better equipped to deal the situation you are DISCUSSING, when you gets out to sea, but I suppose some of you will want to form a committee of the crew and have a meeting to decide what to do???

You do make I laugh. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: I\'m going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

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I mean, if you is agreeing with me that staying out of the way of ships is a good idea, and by doing so you will stay out of trouble (assuming a modicum of seamanship skills and common sense here).....what's all the blather.....(Damn doin' it again) discussion for???


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Yes, I agree that staying out of the way of ships is a good idea.

Yes, it is theory, but discussion of the rules promotes better understanding of the Colregs. Are you arguing that all the leisure boaters out there already have enough understanding of the rules? Do you gracefully concede when a yacht claims rights of way that it is not entitled to?

Yes, it is blather, but boy, isn't it fun?
 
Re: I\'m going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't give a rats ass about the colregs!



[/ QUOTE ]

Other than to make a few arm chair sailor men look ever so clever and knowledgable? You carry on though boy, but none of it will make ya better equipped to deal the situation you are DISCUSSING, when you gets out to sea, but I suppose some of you will want to form a committee of the crew and have a meeting to decide what to do???

You do make I laugh. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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I, (and many others), learned the collision regs well enough to pass the 2nd Officer (Foreign Going) Certificate in 1984. This was as a result of several years of exposure to them being applied and, latterly, applying them myself. The real experience was followed by classroom teaching, and lunchtime grillings in front of lots of my peers... frightening stuff!

As a result of all of this, I mostly react to any circumstance just as automatically as when driving a car.... it takes little thought in most circumstances.

A few things are ingrained in me:

If I see a vessel heading straight for me, and we're not head on, I can be 99% certain that I wont be where he is at the same time, and we wont collide... unless one of us changes something... which is where this thread started.

As a give way vessel, (or a potential stand on vessel outside the sphere of risk of collision), I will resist an alteration of course to Port unless there is no alternative...... and two of the alternatives are to slow down/stop, or turn around and go the other way until the risk has passed, (which seems to be one of your rules, or your only rule).

I do these things with a good working knowledge of the rules, and experience of other people not doing these things and getting into difficulty, (no collisions).

So you cannot say that the rules have no validity in the real world. If you dont have a good working knowledge of them, you are flying by the seat of your pants and keeping your fingers crossed.

When you encounter busy traffic situations, it is even more important to know how the rules work, both to anticipate what might/should happen around you, and to enable you to react quickly to each of a series of situations, which might come one after the other... sometimes, you cant just get the hell out of there.

I'm not saying that everyone should know them intimately, ann be able to apply them instinctively, (and there is absolutely no need to be able to quote them verbatim), but we should have a decent grasp.

We should also be prepared to brush up on them if a situation doesnt go quite as we expected, or if we were unsure as to what to do.

Didnt mean to lecture, so sorry if that's how it comes across.

Cheers

Richard
 
Re: I\'m going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

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We should also be prepared to brush up on them if a situation doesnt go quite as we expected, or if we were unsure as to what to do.


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BTW

I'm guessing that's why David, (DJE), posted in the first place, and I hope he's got something out of it.....

He certainly shouldnt regret opening a discussion/debate, and should be prepared to do it again in a flash.
 
Re: I\'m going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

It has already been pointed out that the rules are somewhat ambiguous, if not outright contradictory when multiple vessel/multiple rule situations arise; the old rule 2 should be interpreted to mean "a mariner should use his best judgment and/or negotiation to come to an amicable solution that best avoids collision." Having been involved in numerous academic discussions between Master Mariners on the rules, I am fairly certain that opinions on your situation would differ drastically amongst even the most experienced mariners. My interpretation would be that you had been complying with your obligation to not impede the vessel following the TSS, and were also complying with your obligation as a stand-on vessel in the overtaking situation with the ferry. When the white ship altered, he created a crossing situation with you in which he was obligated to give-way. By this regard, he created the situation which forced you to act as a stand-on vessel and act accordingly. It's been suggested that his pointing directly at you would not result in a collision - I would agree with that, but I would also not be happy with the situation even though he should have passed a few-hundred yards on your port quarter. I certainly don't fault your decision, as it obviously accomplished the aim, though I think an alteration to port should be avoided. In direct answer to your question, I would suggest five short blasts (a la rule 34d) would be in order, followed by a VHF call to the white vessel to determine her intentions. I would then endeavour to maintain course and speed (as the stand-on vessel for 2 situations), but if obligated would alter to starboard, sounding 1 short blast, as required by rule 34.

On the subject of rule revision, I knew one MM who suggested that all of the rules should be tossed and replaced with a single rule requiring all vessels on a collision course with any other vessel(s) to alter course to starboard until collision is no longer possible. A lot more simple, eh?
 
Re: I\'m going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

An interesting thread DJE, and one, as has been pointed out above on several occasions, shows some of the confusion, complexity and ambiguity of the colregs....

FWIW, my first action would have been to call the white ship, and enquire of his intention WRT to me..... this would serve a dual purpose... firstly it would ensure that he was aware of me, and secondly, it would allow for a mutually understood resolution to be agreed, thus reducing risk.
 
Re: I\'m going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

I have sympathy with your general view.

The term I believe that is not used in Colregs is "right of way"

And as you rightly say that is the one beloved of the nautical motorist as opposed to the sailor.

It seems clear that colregs see an equal duty on both parties, one to "give way" and the other to "stand on"

Both having a duty and not a "right"

I have made this point on a number of occasions and usually get an aggressive and offensive response - but I'll try again.
 
Re: I\'m going to regret this but:- The last time I was in a TSS...

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The white ship then turned to starboard and pointed straight at me. Distance about 2 miles and his speed about 15 knots. What would you have done?


[/ QUOTE ] In 8 minutes he'll be where you are now if he maintains that heading. By that time you'll be 0.7 miles further on, at 45 degrees to him, that would give a miss distance of 0.5 miles - all give or take an inch.

peterb proposed a good action: maintain course and speed. By all means, try communicating to double check he's aware of you and not going to alter back to his course too soon. But most vessels give way by pointing at the vessel they wish to avoid, so I would not have been too worried.

I'd add: check the ferry distance astern to see if there's any wiggle room to alter starboard, and also to assess when the ferry is likely to overtake you. That also may answer any uncertainty . . .

You reaction also worked, but first, you had to be sure that the vessel had completed his turn manoevre and wasn't going to turn any further. And he would not, in general, expect you to turn to port. He'd expect you to stand on. So there seem to be elements of uncertainty to this course of action.

With respect to the 'shall not impede' element of the regs, the best interpretation for smaller vessels is 'plan or delay your TSS crossing to pass through a gap in the oncoming traffic'. This is reasonably easy to do if you have radar, or if the visibility is better than 10nm.

It is not possible to gaurantee you will not impede a vessel if you have no radar, and vis is less than 5nm - you just cannot see far enough. A vessel coming from port at 8nm or so, if he believes you are a potential collision risk, will almost certainly respond to your radar return by making a small alteration of course. Remember, at this stage he doesn't know what size of vessel you are, and therefore doesn't know you're not meant to impede him.

If you object to my use of 5nm above, use your own lower figure . . . 3nm?

My point is, below a certain visibility, it is impossible for small craft without radar to avoid impeding vessels in a TSS. So anyone who proposes 'always keep clear of big boats' is being unrealistic. Or always uses radar. Or never crosses TSS in moderate visibility.

Now think of the situation with vessels coming from your starboard. You won't impede them - until they detect you are a sailing vessel. They will expect you to alter course to pass astern - until they see those sails. At that stage they will face a dilemna - do you know the meaning of 'impede'? And will you react appropriately?

My advice here in a previous thread was - if in moderate or poor visibility with vessels coming from starboard and no radar - always turn yourself into a motor vessel. Then you won't impede anyone. Roll/lower the jib, put the steaming light on, hoist the cone (got one?) start the engine and be ready to turn to starboard.

It'll save you a few nasty frights, too.
 
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