Hydraulic steering?

[Coaster]

Cable steering is generally fitted on medium sized sailing boats with wheels rather than tillers. It often seems rather flimsy in comparison with a substantial hydraulic system. Cable is presumably cheaper than hydraulic.

I would be interested to hear from anyone that has changed from cable to hydraulic. What are the respective advantages and disadvantages?

 

[prv]

Hydraulic is said to have no feel or feedback, although this may not be entirely true with systems designed for sailing boats.

Hydraulic wheels will "drift" so that centring the rudder won't always mean the same wheel position so there's no point marking the king spoke. The proper solution to this is a rudder position indicator as used on ships although I don't know if many yachts use them.

Pete

 

[HinewaisMan]

Wish we’d asked the question before fitting hydraulic steering.

Older Roberts Mauritius like Hinewai had problems running down wind or with following seas with the original rudders – so we decided to build a new bigger rudder and drop it back into a more vertical position. It’s not an unusual fix.

Only to find our old chain, sprocket and 1970’s Bedford truck steering box system got so heavy that SWMBO really struggled to handle the boat – plus we had a couple of breakages since the forces were so much greater – especially when going astern.

So we went hydraulic.

As a system it is superb – 3.5 turn range, light, auto-pilot works great and the ram takes up a lot less room than a big quadrant.

Two big downsides though.

The first is that you have absolutely no feedback through the wheel – and while we’re now used to it, it does take a heap of fun out of sailing.

The other bummer is trying to use our Aires. There’s always a bit of slippage with hydraulics and over time this confuses the wind-steering. We have to get the boat pretty perfectly balanced first, and even so it’ll only last an hour or two before we have to start fiddling again.

If I knew then what I know now, would I fit hydraulic? The answer is no. Indeed, even though to date we’ve done nigh on 20,000 miles with hydraulic, one of the jobs I might one day get round to is to work up a new mechanical system and relegate the hydraulic to a back up/autopilot system.

 

[Beadle]

Hydraulic is said to have no feel or feedback, although this may not be entirely true with systems designed for sailing boats.

They don't


Hydraulic wheels will "drift" so that centring the rudder won't always mean the same wheel position so there's no point marking the king spoke. The proper solution to this is a rudder position indicator as used on ships although I don't know if many yachts use them.

They do


They are even more fun when they get air in them. You suddenly start to sail in circles!

The up side is they are very low maintenance and very reliable. No wires to fray or pulley wheels to seize up as well as being much easier to install, especially if the cable run has to go round a few bends.

 

[mjcoon]

... The proper solution to this is a rudder position indicator as used on ships although I don't know if many yachts use them.

If there is a built-in autopilot then that is likely to have a rudder position sensor visible on the display.

Mike.

 

[ksutton]

If there is a built-in autopilot then that is likely to have a rudder position sensor visible on the display.

Mike.

Yes Raymarine.

 

[windfan]

Steering System problems

The system I used on my 45ft Spindrift Catamaran is produced by Ultraflex and was trouble and maintenance free in 21 years and 125000 miles, easily fitted and economically priced. Going to windward only light touch was needed on the wheel with light feedback and plenty of strength when surfing at 19 knots !! No connection with company except as a very satisfied customer.

 

[Tranona]

The two main advantages of hydraulic systems are they are potentially easier to install as the pipes can run anywhere and it is easier to have dual stations. This is very useful on centre cokpit and wheelhouse boats. Downside is lack of feel and feedback.

For a sailing boat, arguably the best steering is rod or geared direct to quadrant followed by cable. The latter has the advantage of simplicity and flexibility, and is probably the most common.

On most boats switching from mechanical to hydraulic would be a retrograde step.

 

[lustyd]

so we decided to build a new bigger rudder and drop it back into a more vertical position. It’s not an unusual fix.

Only to find our old chain, sprocket and 1970’s Bedford truck steering box system got so heavy that SWMBO really struggled to handle the boat – plus we had a couple of breakages since the forces were so much greater – especially when going astern.

Someone on here (and I forget who) posted about replacing their rudder. The main point they made was that there is a book specifically about rudder design which pointed them to the best angle etc but also to add rudder in front of the pivot point. This removes the strain since the flow of water balances out the pressure. No idea if something like that would work on your boat but might be worth a look if you ever want to go back to mechanical.
Cheers
Dave

 

[snowleopard]

I have a hydraulic system and have sailed 20,000 miles with it. A few points, some agreeing with other posters, some not-

I always have the autopilot switched on if only in standby while under way as I use the helm indicator in the Raymarine display.

Rudder position is fed back from a sensor attached to one of the rudders. On one occasion the sensor got disconnected from the rudder so the course computer thought the rudder was hard over and applied opposite helm to correct it so we went round in circles.

When the autopilot operates the rudder the wheel doesn't move - both wheel pump and autopilot pump have non-return valves.

In case of problems with the wheel it is essential to have a manual bypass valve or you can't turn the rudder with the emergency tiller.

There is normally bags of power, mine has 4 turns lock to lock.

Last year I found one of my rudder rams had come loose where it is mounted on the hull. The result was that the boat hunted either side of the course under autopilot.

I don't know how you would fit a wind vane system. If you connected it via the wheel you would have problems with the wheel getting out of sync. I would use one of the type that have a separate rudder, e.g. Hydrovane.

It is essential to bleed all the air out of the system or it will behave oddly. I have had problems with leaks in copper pipes and I believe a seal has failed on one of the rams so that's a fun job for this winter.

Everyone says there is no feel in a hydraulic system. That is only partly true. The key factor is the non-return valves on the wheel pump. If stop turning the wheel the rudder is effectively locked and you feel no pressure BUT as soon as you start to move the wheel the valves open and you can feel resistance to the turn. It is particularly noticeable when in a big quartering sea when you are constantly steering from side to side to counteract the wave action. In those circumstances you get all the feel of a tiller. The non-return valves are a great boon when you want to let go of the helm to do a quick job - no need to lock the helm, it's automatic.

I had no choice but to use hydraulic as the routing of cables to rudders right into the sterns of the hulls would have been massively complex. As it is, I have a pretty complicated pipe run with special valves to synchronise the rudders.

 

[HinewaisMan]

Someone on here (and I forget who) posted about replacing their rudder. The main point they made was that there is a book specifically about rudder design which pointed them to the best angle etc but also to add rudder in front of the pivot point. This removes the strain since the flow of water balances out the pressure.

The rudder is balanced - if I remember rightly the hours of pouring over books and chats with local designers, we went with the leading edge at around 15% of the chord, about 10% of the rudder area.

It’s a bit less than might be perfect, but we decided to err on the conservative side so the steering wouldn’t become too responsive and twitchy – we’re a cruising boat, not a racer.

The rudder works great – the issue was that the existing steering linkages that came with the boat just were not up to a 30% larger rudder. A system of chain, rod and sprockets took the movement of the wheel into an old 1970’s Bedford Truck steering box from which a solid conrod moved the top of the rudder.

With respect to the heavier steering, an option was to look at the gearing ratios but we were limited on what we could change – there was no room for any larger sprockets. But what decided us to change were two breakages with the steering box when going astern when the forces on the rudder can be significantly higher than normal.

While not too hard to fix, we were prepping the boat for our circumnavigation and you do get this desire to have confidence in your steering system.

Hydraulic seemed the best option – we could use the existing gearing to drive the hydraulic pump and the installation of the ram and pipe work did not need the major surgery to the layout of the stern cabin that a wire and quadrant system would.

Everyone says there is no feel in a hydraulic system. That is only partly true. The key factor is the non-return valves on the wheel pump. If stop turning the wheel the rudder is effectively locked and you feel no pressure BUT as soon as you start to move the wheel the valves open and you can feel resistance to the turn. It is particularly noticeable when in a big quartering sea when you are constantly steering from side to side to counteract the wave action. In those circumstances you get all the feel of a tiller.

To some extent I agree. Certainly you do feel different pressure on the wheel when turning it at different points of sail or different wind conditions.

The issue is that when you stop turning it, the valve kick in and you don’t get the feed back as the yacht lifts or knocks that you do through a mechanical wheel or, even more so, a tiller. This is especially a pain when beating because it is much harder to play the weather helm. On the other hand we’re cruisers so any wind less than 75 degrees off the bow is an anathema.

 

[ITH]

In common with other Nauticat pilot house sailing yachts, our Nauticat 35 has a hydraulic steering system with modified non-return valves. This offers the helmsman the choice of feeling rudder pressure (or not) on the cockpit helm when sailing.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The proper solution to this is a rudder position indicator as used on ships although I don't know if many yachts use them.

Pete

We have cable steering and a Raymarine Autopilot and we also have the separate rudder position indicator in the instruments on the instrument pod over the hatch. Its plug and play on the daisy chain of Sea-talk and wasn't very expensive and although there's a rudder indicator on the autopilot on the cockpit coaming (as others have pointed out is on most Raymarine modular autopilots) its nice to have a very good instant visual reference as to where the rudder is when close quarters maneuvering.

So the answer to you question is that, some yachts use rudder indicators; well at least one - which is ours.

An unexpected byproduct is that I watch it when beating or sailing hard under autopilot. It gives a very good indication of sail balance and how hard the autopilot is working. I find myself glancing at it as the wind builds, as it tells me how the weather helm is building and helps me sort the sail trim out.

 

[prv]

An unexpected byproduct is that I watch it when beating or sailing hard under autopilot. It gives a very good indication of sail balance and how hard the autopilot is working. I find myself glancing at it as the wind builds, as it tells me how the weather helm is building and helps me sort the sail trim out.

Like my tiller, then?

Pete

 

[john_morris_uk]

Like my tiller, then?

Pete

You very funny man.

I like steering with a tiller.

The trouble is they don't work very well in centre cockpit boats.....

 

[haydude]

Cable steering is generally fitted on medium sized sailing boats with wheels rather than tillers. It often seems rather flimsy in comparison with a substantial hydraulic system. Cable is presumably cheaper than hydraulic.

I would be interested to hear from anyone that has changed from cable to hydraulic. What are the respective advantages and disadvantages?

You forgot to mention the excellence of the chains pinions and and shaft Lewmar steering system fitted on Bavaria Cruisers. Much better than wire for obvious reasons, but also better than hydraulic, because it cannot possibly leak and loose pressure!

 

[CURIOUS2]

In common with other Nauticat pilot house sailing yachts, our Nauticat 35 has a hydraulic steering system with modified non-return valves. This offers the helmsman the choice of feeling rudder pressure (or not) on the cockpit helm when sailing.

ITH Thats interesting as I have a Nauticat 331 pilothouse and as far as i know dont have the choice of adjusting the feel of the rudder pressure. I have an adjustable valve on the lower helm that adjusts the amount of wheel turns lock to lock. Where is the valve situated that you refer to ?

 

[joha]

I have a voyager 35 it has which has two steering positions. The outside wheel is cable while the inside is hydraulic there is a by pass valve outside to enable switching between inside or out. The boat is fairly new to me andf the hydraulic pump is missing but all the rest of the system is there and am considering fitting a new pump which is not too expensive.

Sorry if this is going a bit off topic.

But I have a question regards fitting the ram to the rudder. Is it possible to fit it directly to the rudder stock or should there be an arm? I havent actually measured or struck a line from the pump clamp, but am thinking that an arm might have less of a moment compared to direct to the rudder head (there is nut and washer insitu on top of the rudder stock).

J

 

[bendyone]

I have a voyager 35 it has which has two steering positions. The outside wheel is cable while the inside is hydraulic there is a by pass valve outside to enable switching between inside or out. The boat is fairly new to me andf the hydraulic pump is missing but all the rest of the system is there and am considering fitting a new pump which is not too expensive.

Sorry if this is going a bit off topic.

But I have a question regards fitting the ram to the rudder. Is it possible to fit it directly to the rudder stock or should there be an arm? I havent actually measured or struck a line from the pump clamp, but am thinking that an arm might have less of a moment compared to direct to the rudder head (there is nut and washer insitu on top of the rudder stock).

J

You will need a short arm fitted to the rudder stock and the ram will connect to this.

 

[snowleopard]

I have a question regards fitting the ram to the rudder. Is it possible to fit it directly to the rudder stock or should there be an arm? I havent actually measured or struck a line from the pump clamp, but am thinking that an arm might have less of a moment compared to direct to the rudder head (there is nut and washer insitu on top of the rudder stock).

J

Te ram pushes & pulls, it doesn't turn. To produce a rotary motion requires a crank, usually in the form of a short but massive tiller arm attached to the stock and the ram on a pivot on the other end.

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