Hurley 22: the front fell off

[BruceDanforth]

Well it hasn't yet but the teak holding the stemhead fitting is starting to show some movement,



Climbing into the anchor locker to examine the underside reveals a previous repair (hence the visible bolts) where the forestay fitting must have ripped from the deck.

This seems to have been fixed by glassing and bolting in a bit of flat bar in the bow and a metal plate to replace the knackered bit of deck and a smear of filler.



This has gone down hill a lot since I last inspected it and is pretty much just a scary rusty cornflake now and is well beyond the stage I can pretend it isn't there.

Now I have a gallon of resin and about 7 metres of matting (some csm and some woven roving plus some biaxial tape) and the current plan is to take it to bits, rip all this rusty stuff out, reinstate the deck and then glass up a cone in the bows back to a foot and a half or so generally turning the area into a brick **** house. I may also try to tie the teak to the bows with a strip of stainless down the outside of the front.

Thoughts?

 

[LittleSister]

It shouldn't be the teak holding the stem fitting, for a start! (Not sure if you were joking there.)

A cone doesn't seem a good idea as that will make it very difficult to fix the stemhead fitting to, and most of the GRP will be doing nothing. As I see it you need to make a new forward deck 'plate' out of GRP - so the forward deck is once more a single, integrated 'plate' you can bolt to. It doesn't need to be excessssively thick. After removing stem fitting, dirt and crud; build up layer of grp on the under side of the foredeck. After intitial few layers continue to lay up but continue edges down an bit onto the hull sides, so the whole is really fixed from moving up or down and isn't dependent on the possibly damaged existing hull/deck join in that area.

My Hurley 22 was once saved by the stemhead fitting when the forward sling slipped when it was craned - slid up the front of the keel and boat was saved by the sling catching the stemhead fitting - as it as now bow down most of the boat's weight was on that standard fitting and the fairly spindly bolts and a few millimetres thick bit of GRP!

Good luck with the repair.

 

[BruceDanforth]

At the moment if I shake the forestay I can feel the front of the teak lifting slightly - there is a discrepancy of 4 'bolts' at the front that go into the teak - now one is missing and seems never to have been there. I don't know if the other 3 are hidden in fibreglass or are just screws into the wood. I will find this out when I try to take it to bits. I'm hoping with all of the bolts out and the fairleads removed the teak will come free.

Perhaps cone was the wrong word. I'm going to laminate under the deck and down the sides of the hull and do this right back from the stemhead.

 

[srp]

The recommendation for the pointy end of the Corribee is to weld a stainless strap to the front end of the stem head fitting which runs down the stem, about 300mm long, and is through bolted. This not only spreads the load from the forestay, but it also ties the deck moulding to the hull.

 

[LittleSister]

At the moment if I shake the forestay I can feel the front of the teak lifting slightly - there is a discrepancy of 4 'bolts' at the front that go into the teak - now one is missing and seems never to have been there. I don't know if the other 3 are hidden in fibreglass or are just screws into the wood. I will find this out when I try to take it to bits. I'm hoping with all of the bolts out and the fairleads removed the teak will come free.

The stemhead fitting should definitely not be dependent on the teak to hold it in place! It MUST be solidly fitted to the hulll.

It may be the case that the stem fitting was (originally) solidly mounted to the hull, and the front few inches of teak (iroko?) rubbing strake was bolted to the under side of this (i.e. teak mounted on stem fitting, not the other way round).

It sounds like the wood is no longer fixed properly to the hull. Althoughb that's not good, the rubbing strake is less critical and under less load than the stemhead fitting.

I think you need to remake the foreward bit of deck and deck/hull join, and then foic the stem fitting and teak rail to that.

Perhaps cone was the wrong word. I'm going to laminate under the deck and down the sides of the hull and do this right back from the stemhead.

Yes, agree laminate under deck and down a few inches the side of the hull, but I suggest the newly laminated bit should best be like a flat triangle (horizontal and pointing forwards), with downward tabs or wings on the two outer sides. Effectively you'd be making a new front bit (foot or so?) of deck (joined to the hull at the sides), under the existing deck. This should be strong enough to allow the existing damaged deck to be left in its existing sorry state, removed entirely (not a practical proposition), or, if you really felt like doing it, removed at some convenient future moment and replaced with something more aesthetically pleasing.

You could have a bracket made which would mount the stemhead fitting and take the load to lower down in the hull, but this would seem to me unecessarily complicated, of critical dimensions, and expensive.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Is that rusty metal plate part of a (welded up?) fabrication which goes down the sides and is now covered with fibreglass?

 

[TradewindSailor]

I don't know the Hurley and therefore do not know the strength of the stem. It looks like it might be constructed entirely of chopped strand mat ..... a very cheap construction method, but if it is thick enough no real problem on a boat this size.

The loads from the forestay should not be taken by the deck, but passed down the stem. The stem should be strong and the forestay loads can easily be distributed into the hull. If on the other hand the forestay is attached to the deck you will get poor distribution of the loads with the possibility of peeling back the deck.

I would suggest that you treat the current construction as suspicious. Grind back to bare grp with an angle grinder and Dremel when necessary. A 60 or 80 grit flap wheel in a drill can also be quite useful in this regard. Use epoxy resin and 45/45 stitchmat or 100-200g woven cloth tape to build up the inside of the stem and front end of the deck ..... 3-4 layers of the stitchmat or 6-8 layers of the cloth would be enough.

The stem plate should pass down one side of the stem and a backing plate on the opposite side ... so when you are laminating make sure the inner plate sits snugly on the new laminate, even if you have to pack behind it with epoxy filler.

 

[BruceDanforth]

i know the stem head is supposed to bolt to the deck but at the moment there are a lot more 'bolts' go in at the top than come through the rusty plate - it has been bodged with screws.

Here is a side on view



The rubbing strake is bolted onto the hull. The screws for the bronze plates the fairleads mount on might currently have a role in holding the teak on.

All the damage is under the bit of teak so it doesn't matter if the repair is a bit rough and ready. I'm hoping to get the teak off though and back the repair from below. laminate from above to put the deck back then brick ****house-ify it from beneath.

If I can do this I can paint the repair from above to protect if from the elements.

The stemhead fitting should definitely not be dependent on the teak to hold it in place! It MUST be solidly fitted to the hulll.

It may be the case that the stem fitting was (originally) solidly mounted to the hull, and the front few inches of teak (iroko?) rubbing strake was bolted to the under side of this (i.e. teak mounted on stem fitting, not the other way round).

It sounds like the wood is no longer fixed properly to the hull. Althoughb that's not good, the rubbing strake is less critical and under less load than the stemhead fitting.

I think you need to remake the foreward bit of deck and deck/hull join, and then foic the stem fitting and teak rail to that.



Yes, agree laminate under deck and down a few inches the side of the hull, but I suggest the newly laminated bit should best be like a flat triangle (horizontal and pointing forwards), with downward tabs or wings on the two outer sides. Effectively you'd be making a new front bit (foot or so?) of deck (joined to the hull at the sides), under the existing deck. This should be strong enough to allow the existing damaged deck to be left in its existing sorry state, removed entirely (not a practical proposition), or, if you really felt like doing it, removed at some convenient future moment and replaced with something more aesthetically pleasing.

You could have a bracket made which would mount the stemhead fitting and take the load to lower down in the hull, but this would seem to me unecessarily complicated, of critical dimensions, and expensive.

 

[TradewindSailor]

It looks to me like the front of the deck had parted from the hull and hinged back on the back edge of the stemhead fitting / teak pad. There seems to be a crack in the side of the deck moulding at this point. The bolts will be taking the loads from the stemhead fitting and transmitting them into the hull. This is not a good engineering solution .... see my above post.

 

[Lakesailor]

The recommendation for the pointy end of the Corribee is to weld a stainless strap to the front end of the stem head fitting which runs down the stem, about 300mm long, and is through bolted. This not only spreads the load from the forestay, but it also ties the deck moulding to the hull.

That was going to be my suggestion but you got in first. Once done the inside of the stemhead and deckhead inside the locker can be ground back and re-glassed to provide stability and a belt'n'braces security.

 

[viago]

are you a member of the hurley owners club? i always found their advice on the marque pretty sound. it seems that the previous owner had an issue with the forestay mount too, perhaps it's a known weakness with the 22.

fwiw, i think your plan sounds fine as long as your resin is epoxy. i am told that polyester is not up to the job but think there may be some debate on that. of course, if the deck to hull fixing is not secure then the thickness of the fore deck lay up is irrelevant. it is asking a lot of the matting to hold the deck tight under the stresses a big genny might put on it.
you could bolt on external chain plates either side and fashion a new fixing for the forestay, leaving the existing structure without any stress.

 

[BruceDanforth]

The hull is 4 layers of csm and 1 layer of woven roving, the deck is 4 layers of csm and was part of a Lloyds approved series construction in its day but it was constructed a very long time ago - 1969. It isn't doing that badly...

I will be taking all that old filler out and tidying up the hole, hopefully from both sides.

I've already been to the fibreglass shop and have a gallon of lloyds approved polyester, loads of csm, woven rovings and biaxial tape

I don't know the Hurley and therefore do not know the strength of the stem. It looks like it might be constructed entirely of chopped strand mat ..... a very cheap construction method, but if it is thick enough no real problem on a boat this size.

The loads from the forestay should not be taken by the deck, but passed down the stem. The stem should be strong and the forestay loads can easily be distributed into the hull. If on the other hand the forestay is attached to the deck you will get poor distribution of the loads with the possibility of peeling back the deck.

I would suggest that you treat the current construction as suspicious. Grind back to bare grp with an angle grinder and Dremel when necessary. A 60 or 80 grit flap wheel in a drill can also be quite useful in this regard. Use epoxy resin and 45/45 stitchmat or 100-200g woven cloth tape to build up the inside of the stem and front end of the deck ..... 3-4 layers of the stitchmat or 6-8 layers of the cloth would be enough.

The stem plate should pass down one side of the stem and a backing plate on the opposite side ... so when you are laminating make sure the inner plate sits snugly on the new laminate, even if you have to pack behind it with epoxy filler.

 

[BruceDanforth]

Is that rusty metal plate part of a (welded up?) fabrication which goes down the sides and is now covered with fibreglass?

I think it was was once now it is more of a cornflake.

 

[BruceDanforth]

Where the metal plate sits is a jagged hole. The deck has torn out. I don't think it flapped back. It may have done. I don't think it will do it again when I've finished with it either ways.

It looks to me like the front of the deck had parted from the hull and hinged back on the back edge of the stemhead fitting / teak pad. There seems to be a crack in the side of the deck moulding at this point. The bolts will be taking the loads from the stemhead fitting and transmitting them into the hull. This is not a good engineering solution .... see my above post.

 

[BruceDanforth]

That was going to be my suggestion but you got in first. Once done the inside of the stemhead and deckhead inside the locker can be ground back and re-glassed to provide stability and a belt'n'braces security.

I'm not sure my welding friend can weld stainless onto bronze. He's coded but I don't think he has that one.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I think it was was once now it is more of a cornflake.

Ah, a Kellogs fitting? i've had a few on my boat.

A new piece of metal. Thick stainless, bigger on every dimension, bent to shape and glassed in. Personally I would do as Viago says and use epoxy for maximum strength and adhesion to the hull. A few years ago I had a similarish job to do on the rudder fittings on my stern. My supplier very strongly recommended epoxy. Bit of a bummer as you've just spent money on the polyester. Maybe your supplier would take the polyester back?

 

[BruceDanforth]

Ah, a Kellogs fitting? i've had a few on my boat.

A new piece of metal. Thick stainless, bigger on every dimension, bent to shape and glassed in. Personally I would do as Viago says and use epoxy for maximum strength and adhesion to the hull. A few years ago I had a similarish job to do on the rudder fittings on my stern. My supplier very strongly recommended epoxy. Bit of a bummer as you've just spent money on the polyester. Maybe your supplier would take the polyester back?

The same sort of quantities of epoxy will be over a £100 compared to £17 for the polyester. The place I bought it from is a big industrial unit that just sells fibreglass and makes things out of fibreglass. This is what they recommended for the job a lloyds approved polyester resin. I asked them about epoxy and they said it was not neccessary for the job. I have a friend who can fab metal if I need any. I am more concerned about making a new bit of deck. The present arrangement is rather leaky.

 

[William_H]

Back to basic engineering of the load paths. The forestay pull up is the main load which must be eventually returned to the base of the mast support (As does chain plates).
The path originally would appear to be via the deck at the bow, the attachment of the deck to the hull then via the hull to the mast support. It seems the deck to hull atachment has failed. While your approach of reattaching the deck to the hull with lots of resin and glass may do the job it will still depend on the adhesion of the polyester resin to the old hull and deck. Albeit via new bolts through the deck and new GRP.
A far better solution might be to replace the old rusty bracket down to the hull with a new attachment here. Ideally bolts through the stem itself. Always very strong and thick.
I am thinking in terms of 2 bolts holding a saddle on the inside. To this you attach a cable with a turnscrew in it up to another saddle attached to the frestay fitting. The turnscrew enables you to actually tension down the deck onto the hull so taking all the forestay load. Ideally this cable will be inline with the forestay but any deviation will be taken up by the deck, more deviation the more sideways or backward force on the deck.
It may be possible if you get the cable length just right to be able to use the bolts of the forestay fitting to tighten up the tension on the cable insted of the turnscrew.
Of course you should repair any lifting of the deck I think epoxy better than polyester in adhesion to old GRP but the deck should not take the forestay tension. (Which can be quite huge under a big genoa in a decent wind). The tensioned cable is far better than the bracket in that it takes the load imediately wheras a bracket needs the deck to flex up until the bracket takes the load.
A friend had a lightweight strip ply racer which had lots of turnscrews under the deck taking the load of stays even the turning blocks for halyards at the base of the mast. An effective way of passing the load to a strong part. good luck olewill

 

[BruceDanforth]

The deck to hull attachment hasn't failed. Years ago (long before I had the boat) a chunk of deck has torn out - the rusty metal isn't under a bit of deck - it is filling a hole.

I'm not worried about it delaminating from the hull - the new laminate will go right down and on back on itself so even if it does it can't really go anywhere. I've had a dehumidifier in there since October and will zap it all with the angle grinder, clean it down with acetone etc... It is a premium resin and will stick.

The guy keeping an eye on the project is a time served boatbuilder, chartered engineer and naval architect so I'm confident the mast won't fall down.

The turnscrew idea is interesting - this is a fairly pedestrian boat though compared to a racer - she only carries 24sq m

Back to basic engineering of the load paths. The forestay pull up is the main load which must be eventually returned to the base of the mast support (As does chain plates).
The path originally would appear to be via the deck at the bow, the attachment of the deck to the hull then via the hull to the mast support. It seems the deck to hull atachment has failed. While your approach of reattaching the deck to the hull with lots of resin and glass may do the job it will still depend on the adhesion of the polyester resin to the old hull and deck. Albeit via new bolts through the deck and new GRP.
A far better solution might be to replace the old rusty bracket down to the hull with a new attachment here. Ideally bolts through the stem itself. Always very strong and thick.
I am thinking in terms of 2 bolts holding a saddle on the inside. To this you attach a cable with a turnscrew in it up to another saddle attached to the frestay fitting. The turnscrew enables you to actually tension down the deck onto the hull so taking all the forestay load. Ideally this cable will be inline with the forestay but any deviation will be taken up by the deck, more deviation the more sideways or backward force on the deck.
It may be possible if you get the cable length just right to be able to use the bolts of the forestay fitting to tighten up the tension on the cable insted of the turnscrew.
Of course you should repair any lifting of the deck I think epoxy better than polyester in adhesion to old GRP but the deck should not take the forestay tension. (Which can be quite huge under a big genoa in a decent wind). The tensioned cable is far better than the bracket in that it takes the load imediately wheras a bracket needs the deck to flex up until the bracket takes the load.
A friend had a lightweight strip ply racer which had lots of turnscrews under the deck taking the load of stays even the turning blocks for halyards at the base of the mast. An effective way of passing the load to a strong part. good luck olewill

 

[westernman]

Just have to post this:-