Hoyt Spinnaker Gun Mount System

[dgadee]

There's a small Freedom parked near me (25 foot, I think) with a gun mount system for the spinnaker pole. Why did this never take off, and asymmetric cruising chutes did? A gun mount system should give be as easy to control and give deeper usage if you believe the arguments put for it.

 

[mainsail1]

What is that? Picture please.

 

[RobbieW]

A Google search on 'gunmount spinnaker' suggests these are specific to Freedom boats and can only work where there is no forestay. Sort of looks like the asy is a more general usage development from a similar idea but without the ability to use the kite deep.

 

[Daydream believer]

A Google search on 'gunmount spinnaker' suggests these are specific to Freedom boats and can only work where there is no forestay. Sort of looks like the asy is a more general usage development from a similar idea but without the ability to use the kite deep.

They can work with a forestay. The pole would fit in front of it
However, the problem of having both clews fixed can be dangerous
If a gust hits you cannot release the clew. The option is to release the halliard but release too much & the sail ends up in the water. (Unless the other end is fixed to the downhaul)
It would take too long to harden the weather sheet & stall the sail
The sail is not so efficient on a reach as the trailing clew cannot be released allowing adjustment of leech shape
I seem to recall racing rules that banned having both clews fixed to pole ends at the same time due to i dangers of not being able to release the sail
This applied to the introduction of twin pole systems which became popular for gybing

 

[dgadee]

My question was posed because I was browsing an old book, Easier Rigs for Safer Cruising (1986). The author (a junk proponent) says of the Hoyt system: "All that remains now is to trim the pole at the best angle to the wind, using the reins [ie the ropes to the ends of the pole]. There is no need to take these round a winch, since almost all the thrust of the pole is taken by the 'Gun-Mount'. Even in strong winds, it is easy to hold the reins by hand, and alter the trim of the pole at will." p133.

He makes it sound - and says he had used the system - as easy as a cruising chute.

I understand that the system was patented, but I presume that it could have been licensed to other builders. It has been used on model yachts, but never heard of it on anything apart from the Freedoms.

Added: or has it developed into this: http://www.garryhoyt.com/id38.html

 

[DJE]

There's a small Freedom parked near me (25 foot, I think) with a gun mount system for the spinnaker pole. Why did this never take off, and asymmetric cruising chutes did? A gun mount system should give be as easy to control and give deeper usage if you believe the arguments put for it.

Something like this? I used to crew on one of these.

 

[dgadee]

No - the Freedom in the yard I'm at me has a short tube affixed to the top of the pulpit. The pole slides along it.

Here's a video I just found on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc1-AsMX8uQ

and here's one with better camera work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx7bMnQgRoY

 

[Keen_Ed]

I remember that system when it came out. IIRC, I never saw any other boats mentioned with it - I think that Gary Hoyt viewed it as an extra reason to buy a freedom.

With his Hoyt jib boom, he's gone the other way, and has marketed it across builders.

 

[mcframe]

A Google search on 'gunmount spinnaker' suggests these are specific to Freedom boats and can only work where there is no forestay. Sort of looks like the asy is a more general usage development from a similar idea but without the ability to use the kite deep.

Awah!

I thought it was some cunning arrangement to avoid having the pole and pole downhaul get in the way of the bow chasers when gybing.....

 

[lw395]

The 'Alto' dinghy does something broadly similar.
Several 90's dinghies including the RS400 and Laser 4000 cant the pole to windward about 15 degrees.
I think something more complex is done on 'mini transat' boats?

 

[RobbieW]

Awah!

I thought it was some cunning arrangement to avoid having the pole and pole downhaul get in the way of the bow chasers when gybing.....

Obviously of use in the situation described in the thread about 'I'm the spinnaker boat...', just in case the leeward boats dont understand the rules

 

[Sybarite]

They can work with a forestay. The pole would fit in front of it
However, the problem of having both clews fixed can be dangerous
If a gust hits you cannot release the clew. The option is to release the halliard but release too much & the sail ends up in the water. (Unless the other end is fixed to the downhaul)
It would take too long to harden the weather sheet & stall the sail
The sail is not so efficient on a reach as the trailing clew cannot be released allowing adjustment of leech shape
I seem to recall racing rules that banned having both clews fixed to pole ends at the same time due to i dangers of not being able to release the sail
This applied to the introduction of twin pole systems which became popular for gybing

Is this why you don't see as often now the spinnaker being attached to both bows on a catamaran?

 

[flaming]

Interesting system. Can see the advantages on a reach, but on a run it's never going to be as quick as a conventional system, as you aren't going to get the same projection. This will always have the middle of the kite in line with the bows, but when running we will have the kite a long way to windward and the clew at the forestay. So possibly better for quick boats that sail the angles downwind.

But then you're limited to a symmetrical sail, and not an especially large one at that. Sailmakers are now saying the only reason to have symmetrical spinnakers, even on conventional pole setups, is for ease of gybing on short courses. So if you can't sail deep as fast as a conventional sail, and aren't as easy to use or as fast on a reach (probably) as a big A sail on a sprit.... I don't see it as performance enhancing.

 

[dgadee]

Sailmakers are now saying the only reason to have symmetrical spinnakers, even on conventional pole setups, is for ease of gybing on short courses.

Can you elaborate on this? Not sure I quite understand.

 

[flaming]

Can you elaborate on this? Not sure I quite understand.

A sails are designed to have the flow going one way across the sail. As such they are more efficient than Symmetrical spinnakers, where the sail has to be designed to work with the flow going either way. So if you're distance racing it's pretty normal to use A sails only, even on slow non planing boats, and fly them off the conventional pole.
Makes gybing a right PITA though, so still considered overall faster to use conventional symmetrical sails on short WW/LW courses when you're sailing with a conventional pole setup.

 

[dgadee]

A sails are designed to have the flow going one way across the sail. As such they are more efficient than Symmetrical spinnakers, where the sail has to be designed to work with the flow going either way. So if you're distance racing it's pretty normal to use A sails only, even on slow non planing boats, and fly them off the conventional pole.
Makes gybing a right PITA though, so still considered overall faster to use conventional symmetrical sails on short WW/LW courses when you're sailing with a conventional pole setup.

For cruising, should you forget the cruising chute and get an asymmetric spinnaker then?

 

[flaming]

For cruising, should you forget the cruising chute and get an asymmetric spinnaker then?

The cruising chute is a type of Asymmetric, just a more forgiving one. It'll be more stable but less fast basically, mainly due to the size of the shoulders.

If you don't want a symmetrical kite (which would be my choice for cruising) then stick to a cruising chute for an easy life.

 

[Keen_Ed]

 

[Richard JM]

Hi Folks,
I just joined this forum and I realize this thread is so old that maybe nobody will read this. But I feel compelled to add some reality to the discussion of the Hoy Gyun Mount Spinnaker system.

With all due respect to member Daydream Believer, nearly everything you've said about the system is wrong. I've sailed my 1985 Freedom 32 for 17 years and before that I woned a Freedom 25 and two Freedom 21s. So I am intimately familiar with and expereinced with the Hoyt Gun Mount Spinnaker system. It is one of the very best reasons to own these boats, because it totally tames the chute and makes it a real cruising sail.

Here: some specifics. Previous post said:

"They can work with a forestay. The pole would fit in front of it" That is correct.

"However, the problem of having both clews fixed can be dangerous
If a gust hits you cannot release the clew." That is false. Both clews are pulled to the pole ends by the clew outhaul lines. they can easily be released by simply rleasing the relevant sheet stopper. Spilling wind is thus instantaneous.

"It would take too long to harden the weather sheet & stall the sail" Alsoi incorrect. This system has no sheets in the traditional sense. It has "reins" a line running out to each end of the [pole. Since the pole is pivoting on its midpoint, there are no loads on the reins. A child can steer the sail effortlessly by simply pulling one and relaxing the other. the sail can be stalled in a moment.

"The sail is not so efficient on a reach as the trailing clew cannot be released allowing adjustment of leech shape" Also wrong. We carry our spinnaker sheeted in hard right up to a beam reach and it makes for a real thrilling ride! Adjusting each clew is simple using the clew outhauls as described above.

"I seem to recall racing rules that banned having both clews fixed to pole ends at the same time due to i dangers of not being able to release the sail
This applied to the introduction of twin pole systems which became popular for gybing" Perhaps, but the Hoyt Spinnaker system was banned because it gave the boat an unfair advantage. Basically it transforms the spinnaker into a square-rigged sail. Gybing amounts to nothing more than steering the sail with the reins! Dead downwind it works perfectly and is really fun if you take the main down. Then you can sail from a reach to a reach with no boom crashing across the boat and no blanketing of the chute. I could go on but this post is too long as it is. I'd be happy to answer any more questions about this if anybody is interested. Suffice it to say that I am such a big fan of the Hoyt Gunmount Spinnaker System that I am trying to figure out how to adapt it to my next boat!

 

[Pickard Corsair]

I have a Freedom 21 as my spare home port boat for racing around and taking the kids out, it is amazing how easy it is to deploy, retract and use the spinnaker whilst sailing single handed with no prep other than attaching the main halyard, it's almost as easy as rolling in the genoa. Just a shame the racing rules don't allow this specification as it balances out with restricted upwind sailing and would compete fairly with other boats using traditional spinnakers.