How to "Med Spec" a boat - air con especially

Nick_H

Nick_H

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www.ybw-boatsforsale.com
How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

So the decision is made and its the Med next year. The choice now is whether to try and sell the boat here, and buy a med spec boat already out there, or to spec up our existing boat. Given that its very hard to shift mobo's at the moment and we like our boat, I think it may be the latter.

Even if it costs a bit more I would like to get all the work done here, 'cos then I can keep an eye on it and communicate / litigate easily with the supplier if anything goes wrong

So, any advice on:

1. things that are necessary of nice-to-have in the Med

2. size of air con needed in a 46 foot flybridge (is 17,000 or 24,000 BTU enough)

3. any pros or cons of different types of air con (integrated compressor vs. seperate compressor?)

4. I spoke to Yacht Services in Southampton and they were very helpful, and sell and install Mermaid air con units. Any experience of this company or these units? They also reckon their units have a low power start up, so I can get away with my existing 6.5 kVA genny, which obviously saves a big cost if I had to upgrade it

5. Is a flybridge bimini essential

6. Do teak decks get too hot to walk on

7. Is weather info readily available, or is Navtex a must

The other factor of course is whether we can get a berth without buying a boat already there. We're probably thinking Antibes, and we want to rent in the first year at least, to be sure its where we want to stay.

Any advice gratefully recieved
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

5. Is a flybridge bimini essential - YES; unless you want to be cooked!!

6. Do teak decks get too hot to walk on - YES (in bare feet). NO (if you wear deckshoes /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif )

7. Is weather info readily available, - YES, or is Navtex a must - YES

Qualify Navtex; where we are then it's like a micro-climate; what is on the weather sites is not necessarily true for imminent wind or sea state. Need the navtex to support passage planning

www.seraph-sailing.com
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

I can't help too much with the technical stuff re the aircon but in answer to your other points:-

1) You will need a passarelle for stern to mooring - oops sorry just seen your CI post and seen the nice shiny passarelle on your boat

5) Yes a bimini is essential on the flybridge, blue looks best but white / cream does a better job of keeping the heat off.

6) Teak decks do get hot but I have never found it too hot to walk on.

7) You can get the weather info from a WAP phone and it is generally available in Port/Marina offices. I have Navtex but its bust so I can't tell you if its worth it.

The other thing you need is a LOT of patience! They do things differently in the SoF and Spain to the UK. Spend some time speaking to other boat owners about who the good engineers are and who to avoid - they have usually learnt from bitter experience.

There are enough people on here with knowledge of SoF, Mainland Spain and Majorca to help you avoid the pitfalls.

Good Luck

Martyn

Ps I would take your boat, you know where its been!
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

1. Necessary things: Airco, passerelle, bimini, icemaker

2. Airco:

the btu will be limited by the 6.5kva genny, but 6.5 should be ok so long as you dont want to cook at same time. I dont think 17kbtu is quite enuf.

We had a phantom 42 with 16k btu in saloon and 12kbtu serving both cabins and it was fine in Antibes (on a 4.5kva genset).

Our Sq58 has 36kbtu total (from memory, might be a bit out)and is fine in Antibes.

I'd think 12k for saloon, 12k shared by 2 front cabins, 8k aft cabin for you will be plenty, and (just) ok with 6.5kva. I dont know if you have 3 cabins or 2 - if only two then 12k saloon ducted also to front cabin and 8k aft cabin might be enough, though cutting it a bit fine.

Re system architecture. Option 1 is chillers in lazerette. These make cold water and it gets distributed around boat in thin pipes. Then in each cabin there is an airhandler, basically a car radiator with a fan over it, to make the cold air. We have this on the Sq as facotry spec, and it is what we had retrofitted to the phantom. It's by far the best becuase the noisy compressor part is in the laz, not under your bed. Alternative is self contained compressor/chillers, in each cabin space. Noisy, bit cheaper, but I wudnt recommend. Also consider having 2x chillers 50% each. This eases start up load on genset (the motors stsart in sequence) and you can turn one off if you need only a bit of airco and want to cook

You should get a brand with good service back up in the med. Imho get MarineAir or CruiseAir. These have really nice digi controls (they're made by same company, Dometic). Dont get HFL, no france backup in my experience

On our phantom 42 it cost £4600 parts, £1800 labour, + crane-out for a retrofit of MarineAir, 2x remote chillers 16k + 12k and 2x airhandlers, digi controls. In 2002. We used Taylormade, Poole, 01202 493255, contact Paul Hickinbotham and I'd recommend them highly. It was all done perfectly, great service

3. see above re architecture

4. I don't know Mermaid or that installer; check if there is Med/French backup for Mermaid. Really, I'd play safe and get the Dometic gear. MarineAir or CruiseAir. Everyone recognises these and they wont be a problem on resale. They are standard fit by Sunseeker, Fairline, Princess, and lots of med boats.

5. Biminis - yes, or you will fry. Pretty expensive. White looks nice but goes pink with the red rain in the med and you cant wash it out. I've just bought new blue covers to replce my pinked white ones, £800 ouch. So blue is more practical.

6. Yes, but it doesn't matter, you just wet them. Everyone is barefoot in the med, no shoes ever, so wood decks much nicer than plastic. This wont be a problem at all.

7.Loads of weather on internet, posted at marina, etc. Lots of microclimating, so Navtex limited use anyway

8. You need a passerelle. Suggest Opacmare or Besenzoni. Cheaper to get this fitted in Med. Pascal does them in GJ for cash, ahem, about €4500. Great job. Maybe you need to check out if your transom is reinforced enough? And you "need" icemaker, suggest U-line, also part of Dometic. Lots of backup for these

Berthing is another subject. Would you fancy buying one, cos that's the best solution imho? Whats your length/beam? Good luck, and you'll love it down there.
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

Only things to add to above:

Aircon: Apart from when we were in very, very hot places, like Tunisia (45C), we found that we usually used aircon only when in port where there was a mains power supply. Didn’t need on overnight when at anchor and didn’t need during the day cos we would either be outside or had a nice breeze through hatches. From my experience, I wouldn’t worry about your generator size, especially if you have a dual system and can run one at a time.

Weather info: In central Med, where you are going, the weather radio service was (3 years ago) way in advance of UK. Channel 68 gives continuous (24/7) rolling forecast for sea areas around Italy (and to Balearics and Greece) in Italian and English for 12 hour, 24 hour periods and 48 hour outlook. Also Monaco Radio continuously on Channel 23 and there are others. Navtex also useful, but more for other areas and warnings.

As for “You’ll probably be back in 3 years”, I spent four years in Med, came back (for domestic reasons) and can’t wait to get back out there.
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

Great, thanks for all the info.

The boat has two cabins (front and back) with a saloon which leads through to an open dinette where the third cabin sometimes is. The suggestion has been to have two 12,000 BTU units, one in saloon and one in dinette, with air ducted through to the cabins, one from each. The downside is you cant control the temp from the cabins, and it sounds like 24kBTU may not be quite enough clout anyway.

In the hottest UK weather the aft cabin always stays cool cos the whole floor is one big heat exchanger with the surrounding sea, and 'cos the flybridge keeps the sun off the cockpit, which is the roof of the aft cabin, if that makes any sense. Do you have to run the air con all night in SoF?

I take the point about the manufacturer having service support locally and for resale, so will look at the MarineAir / CruiseAir stuff. I'll give Taylormade a ring, their prices seem comparable with what I've been given so far

I already have a passarelle, though its the type that rotates through 90 degrees, rather than the telescopic type. I don't think its quite long enough to stretch over the tender, but I'll probably get something fashioned in stainless and teak that I can add manually to get on and off the boat.

Bimini sounds like a must have from the responses so far, and the ice maker much the same.

With regard to the berth we wanted to rent for a couple of reasons, firstly so we can see if we like being in Antibes, and secondly to get a feel for the optimum size of boat there without being constrained by the berth length. I suppose if there are simply none to rent, but a virtually guaranteed re-sale, then we might consider buying. The boat is officially 14.1 metres, but the dinghy does overhang almost a metre. The beam is 4.3 metres. If buying we might prefer to look at something that would take a 55 footer, unless the price difference was disproportionate.
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

I know you are heading to Antibes but I wish you the very best. The euro lot seem to have three speeds: Slow, Slower and backwards. Unless you happen to be native that is. The see a Brit and you can almost see the dollar signs light up in their eyes.

For the cost of the upgrades, the shipping and the berthing, is it not cheaper to charter when you want to be out there? I personally would never have a boat based outside of my direct control again - especially if you actually had to rely on local help - cos you wont get any.

I'm sure Magnum and a few others on here would agree. The transport companies wouldn't be in business if the boats only moved once. I hope it will be diffrerent for you though...
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

Hi Nick

I've had similar thoughts in the past about locating to the med.
Our T51 is already "spec'd up" for the med.
Although she was factory fitted with aircon, the units were installed in non standard places in order minimise the effect on general boat storage.
Points to remember - is your generator set powerful enough?
Having said that, we rarely use the A/C with the generator but I wouldnt be without the A/C either - great for drying the boat out and seems to get rid of the damp smells.

Our system is four units fed by one single cooling seawater pump.
If any unit calls for cooling (or heating for that matter) the pump starts and water is forced through all the A/C units.
This means that there is an initial load that has to be satisfied even if you only want one unit running. For examplem I can just about run two units from a 16a shore supply but as soon as the kettle goes on ......

We also fitted a bimini when we bought the boat (second hand).
We use it a lot - even the UK - would be an absolute MUST in the med.
I can recommend JB Covers - go for the larger frames.

Perhaps you should have a look at our A/C stsrem before you commit yourself - it would be good to meet you anyway - I'd like to see how you've got on with your Satellite system as well.

Mike
 
A bit of balance please.......

I think your view is clouded by your recent experiences in Greece Jez.

We had an horrific first year in the Med (well documented on here) mainly because I took too many people on trust (all English ex-pats by the way). Things improved dramatically when we decided to take charge of things ourselves and spent some time learning how things work out there.

Yes we still have problems but judging by this forum no more than many UK based boaters. I can be at my boat door to door in about the same time it would take me to drive from home to the South coast.

I fully understand your feelings but there are a good number of happy British boaters in the Med.


All IMHO of course
 
Re: A bit of balance please.......

Perhaps, but I am not basing my judgement on the initial problems with the boat. That could have easily happened in th UK. But the fact that the engineer in Kos marina to the sum total of feck all, despite promises and several inflated invoices. In Alimos marina we were given the very basic of info, no one is prepared to help (and by this, i mean payed to do a job). I found in general that 90% of the people we have met would rather cut their own arm of than actually do anything we asked.

As David put on another thread, when we were in the berth at Alimos the Greek resident boat came back in. Understandably, he motioned that we were in his berth, I tried to explain (from a distance) and all I got back was - 'You come to my berth, in my place and I have to speak english to you' - all he had to do was wait for the marina to find us another berth (he was back early) - a matter of 5 minutes. When they found us another berth it was with much sighing and tutting as if WE were in the wrong.

No, I'm sorry, I really can't understand why you would place such an investment in countries where the general population would rather you weren't there.
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

As other had stated, but for what its worth my input........

Passerelle a total must or you will be James Bond'ing' on or the boat the whole time. Cheapest way is to get one of them ally ones that you just plonk on and off belween boat and quay, downside is can't bring it with you. Best bet is to have hydrualic one fitted, expensive but you make it back on resale nobody buys a boat in the med without one if they can help it, make sure transom is up to it, seen a few retrofits that bust the gel and thin grp on the upper transom. You may also want one with a bit of ooomph that can lift a dingy but again check the ability of the transom to handle it.

Air con, get the biggest you can handle on your genny, as jfm says two unit jobie installed in the laz is by far the best set up, less noise, easier when it fires up on the genny, tother wise its a cabin job and you will never sleep with the fridge unit kicking in and out. Also make sure the water outlet is to the further'st aft section of the hull or you hear niagra falls all night.

Bimini also a must for flybridge or is a no go area from mid day on, blue is best although will pale after a couple of seasons, white looks crap after about six months.

Navtex, waste of time, half the time in most marinas crap signal.

Teak hot yes but not as bad as hot grp, don't oil it either or you will be re doing it every few months just let is go nice silvery colour and wash.

Berth, if poss make a decision about where you want to be and buy one, renting expensive and no return, berths hold up well and you should be able to move it on with maybe even small profit, Antibes is pretty much the centre of SoF boating area so you are not that far from anywhere really so good spot, could try Port de la Napoule just south, cheaper and just a stones throw from Cannes.

Good idea is also to make sure you can warp up cross lines on your existing cleats, some places can be a bit windy and rock and roll and cross lines help keep ass end of boat in position. Some UK boats don't have big enough aft cleats to take another set of lines. You'll notice also that most med boaties have their home berth lines already rigged to the quay off chains totherwise they can get chaffed quite badly on the concrete.
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

Good stuff. The ground tackle (bow lines) in Med are good and firm, so you can park the boat with only 6inch gap between tender and quay, without worrying about busting the tender in bad weather/wind. So long as you get the lines tight, that is. Stern winches are very handy, but not essential. So, your passerelle is ok if it reaches level with the dinghy edge - you can jump a small gap

In Antibes berths are 15x5 then 23x6. In Golfe Juan they are 12x4.5 then 18x5 I think. Other marinas will have other sizes, but they are all in similar increments. No half sizes if you see what I mean

You are allowed 10% over on length, sometimes more if the alley at your bow is wide enough. Zero extra allowed on width of course, and allow for fenders

In Antibes you need a 15x5 which will be around £160-170k approx, and pretty rare (at least, on the nicer South side quays). Perhaps only one or two for sale at any time. Many of the 15x5 in Antibes allow more than 10% over, our Sq58 is on a 15x5 and we have a jetrib overhang at the stern too

Renting is hit and miss. You could get lucky and get a few years uninterupted, or you could get a call telling you to get off at end of month cos owner wants it back... Lots of previosu posts on this, tcm, learner, etc.
 
Re: A bit of balance please.......

[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm sorry, I really can't understand why you would place such an investment in countries where the general population would rather you weren't there.


[/ QUOTE ]
Well I would certainly agree with that sentiment, but it still relates to your experience in Greece which is not necessarily representative of the whole Med and certainly not the feeling I get in Alcudia, where as I said, the issues I have had have all been with ex-pats.
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

Jez

I think it would be difficult in your current circumstances not to feel the way you do. I have travelled widely throughout Europe for business and pleasure , and have generally been welcomed wherever I've been. I always learn a few words in the native tongue, its amazing how it transforms peoples attitude to you. I have a head start in France in that I speak some French, though far from fluent.

Don't be too swayed by your recent experiences, it doesn't apply to the whole of Europe. I'm happy to share a beer with any of our European cousins, I just don't want to share a government with them!
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

Mike

I've always used JB for covers and will do so again. I think I'll have a good look at the air-con options at SIBS (as one potential supplier has been kind enough to send me complimentary tickets), armed with the info given by forumites above.

I agree it would be nice to meet up, will you be around the Solent over the bank holiday weekend? If so I'll keep in touch and see if our paths will cross.

Nick
 
Re: How to \"Med Spec\" a boat - air con especially

Do you allow for half the width of the fenders (your neighbour allowing for the other half), or the full width. It sounds pedantic but the difference between a 4.4m beam and a 4.7 metre beam is quite significant, if the length is less restricted. Anyway I think we'll start berth hunting early next year as we're paid up here till April.

The plan at the moment is to get all the work done in the UK, plus as much preventative stuff as possible like new hoses throughout, full service of engines, gearboxes and genny etc. I'm seriously thinking about getting the boat surveyed to provide a list of everything that needs to be done to give as much trouble free boating as possible once we move, or maybe I'll just discuss what can be done with Col.
 
decks and marinas

Nautical! Shame on you :-) Let the teak go silvery, ugh! It has to be non oiled, kept clean and straw brown, always looking just as it did the day the boat was delivered!

Re marina choices, remeber a thing that makes med boating easy or not is travel. Many posts on this before. Antibes is 15-20min 40 euro cab from Nice ariport but LaNapoule is 2x that. Dont spoil the whole experience by making the journey any crappier than it needs to be, imho... And Antibes is an utterly beautiful town, 300m walk from your boat. None of the other towns behind marinas (LaNap, GJ, SLdV, Baie des Anges) is even 1% as nice/beautiful as Antibes imho
 
fender diameter

Yup, it's half the fenders. Of course many boats are comfortably less than the berth's width so in practice people aren't out there with tape measures. We are 4.85m beam on a 5m berth so the one half rule is important to us.
 
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