How secure is your ownership?

[yachtpilot]

I recently suffered a considerable loss following the actions of the joint owner of our Rampart 48 motor yacht. Representing herself as sole owner when registering the MY with the SSR without my knowledge, she had a registration certificate issued in only her name. Recently, without my knowledge, the MY was listed on an auction site and sold for a sum well below the true value of the vessel. To date, I've not received any funds and the monies due to me resulting from the sale are very significantly less than would have been the case had the vessel been marketed responsibly. I have no knowledge of the current whereabouts of the person responsible. We might believe that this would be impossible but it maybe it's worth checking that, as a joint owner, your boat is still where you left it :>)

 

[DavidJ]

I guess you can’t claim on insurance that your half of the boat has been stolen.
Thats shocking!
From your previous post you are a recent owner. I wonder if it was a well setup scam from the start.

 

[Minerva]

Presumably that’s straight up fraud / theft and something the police would be taking action on..?

 

[penfold]

Doesn't seem worth the effort of disappearing for so little money. It's hard for people to disappear, if they have a reasonably uncommon name 192 searches will show a trail. If they are Joan Smith then a tracing agent might be worth the money. If you can substantiate your co-ownership I'd be going to the police and thence to ebay who obviously hold information about the fraudster. Do you have any knowledge of them that you can verify independently, i.e. is anything they've told you not cobblers?

 

[yachtpilot]

I guess you can’t claim on insurance that your half of the boat has been stolen.
Thats shocking!
From your previous post you are a recent owner. I wonder if it was a well setup scam from the start.

No.. the lady concerned is my ex. She decided she wanted out of the boat.. that simple. I wasn't aware that she'd registered the boat using only her own name. Apparently that can be done using Part 3 of the SSR. They obviously didn't ask for a Bill of Sale listing both of the new owner(s).. when I submitted it to them a couple of weeks back during the auction (which I'd discovered was happening only by accident) they very quickly issued an updated registration cert. but by then the boat had been sold. The auction people, in spite of being advised of what was happening and being still in possession of the payment held in escrow went ahead and released the funds to her.
Not looking for sympathy here, just wanting to make people aware of the risks of using Part 3 of the SSR... and of buying a boat based on seeing the registration cert. It's simply the marine equivalent of a vehicle V5.. doesn't guarantee ownership of the seller. Be aware.

 

[yachtpilot]

Presumably that’s straight up fraud / theft and something the police would be taking action on..?

They've been made aware, apparently falls under Part 3 of the Fraud Act 2006. False representation, but, as they said, with rape cases taking two years to come to court.. The buyers of the boat still have no idea that it was sold illegally. May not even be insured.

 

[yachtpilot]

I guess you can’t claim on insurance that your half of the boat has been stolen.
Thats shocking!
From your previous post you are a recent owner. I wonder if it was a well setup scam from the start.

We bought the boat in the Spring of last year. I've had many boats over the years but this was the first bought as joint ownership. I hadn't thought of talking to my insurance company.. worth a try. Thnx.

 

[penfold]

I doubt the boat sale itself is illegal; the fraud lies in not giving you half of the proceeds.

 

[thinwater]

Lawyer. I see a number of mistakes on the part of the auction house and the buyer. The "ex" situation is also in play. Lawyer.

 

[yachtpilot]

I doubt the boat sale itself is illegal; the fraud lies in not giving you half of the proceeds.

Well, the 'False Representation' aspect is in presenting herself first, to the SSR as sole owner, and secondly, to the Auction people as sole owner. She had no right to sell without agreement with myself. Rather like one's wife selling the home while you're away on a contract, only that would be picked up by the solicitors.. With the SSR, it's much easier to get away with it.. hence me posting here.. I've been around boats my entire life, was a professional yacht skipper as my first career, 17 yrs. Was still not aware that this could happen.

 

[yachtpilot]

Lawyer. I see a number of mistakes on the part of the auction house and the buyer. The "ex" situation is also in play. Lawyer.

The auction house, on receiving copies of the updated reg. cert and our original Bill of Sle listing the shares of ownership agreed to retain the funds in escrow, then two days later decided to release them. No idea why. The SSR have agreed to block any transfer of ownership.

 

[ari]

I would be taking good legal advice. It would seem to me that the person defrauded is not you, you still own half of that boat, it's the 'new owner'.

Get legal advice and get your boat back, leave the defrauded buyer to take it up with your ex. Do you know where the boat is and do you still have a set of keys?

The situation regarding proof of ownership of private boats is a joke, and always has been. Absolutely wide open to very easy fraud.

 

[SC35]

The SSR is a red herring here, and the auction house should have known that.
Regarding the original bill of sale listing the shares of ownership ... do all owners have to agree to a sale?

 

[Just_sayin']

Interesting that on this particular auction

1961 RAMPART 48, classic BRITISH Motor Yacht For Sale By Auction | Car And Classic

the "paperwork" only shows part 3 SSR which means nothing.

 

[Poecheng]

Part III registration is meaningless in this situation.
In the absence of anything superseding it, the Bill of Sale upon the OP's purchase will be determinative of ownership rights.
What is relevant is ownership and it appears you had a Bill of Sale showing you as an owner of a certain number of shares in the boat, rather than joint owner of all the shares.
There has been no effective transfer of title since the OP, as joint owner, has not sold his share or (if joint owner of the whole) not consented to the sale of the whole. As has been said, the fraud is on the new purported purchasers.
If the sale was documented by a Bill of Sale, it would not be possible to sell it in the way described and on the facts as stated without a false representation as to ownership.
Being put on notice that you had rights of ownership of the boat, and therefore now rights over the purchase monies into which the boat has been converted, the auction house have converted your monies.

 

[yachtpilot]

I would be taking good legal advice. It would seem to me that the person defrauded is not you, you still own half of that boat, it's the 'new owner'.

Get legal advice and get your boat back, leave the defrauded buyer to take it up with your ex. Do you know where the boat is and do you still have a set of keys?

The situation regarding proof of ownership of private boats is a joke, and always has been. Absolutely wide open to very easy fraud.

I would be taking good legal advice. It would seem to me that the person defrauded is not you, you still own half of that boat, it's the 'new owner'.

Get legal advice and get your boat back, leave the defrauded buyer to take it up with your ex. Do you know where the boat is and do you still have a set of keys?

The situation regarding proof of ownership of private boats is a joke, and always has been. Absolutely wide open to very easy fraud.

I'm retired on a very limited pension, all of my captital was tied up in that boat. I have spoken with a lawyer, to a layman, it all appears very clear cut.. until one speaks with a lawyer. At £250 per hour with no guarantee of the outcome, it's just too risky. The police are now involved. If I can get a conviction under Part 3 of the Fraud Act 2004, 'False Representation', which is realtively straightforward, it will almost guarantee success in a civil court, and may even result in being awarded damages in the magistrate's court. But some way in the future, my hobby was renovating small boats/yachts, bringing them back to life, keeping me fit, a project, now I'll just sit and vegetate.. that's a real bummer.

 

[Poecheng]

I'm retired on a very limited pension, all of my captital was tied up in that boat. I have spoken with a lawyer, to a layman, it all appears very clear cut.. until one speaks with a lawyer. At £250 per hour with no guarantee of the outcome, it's just too risky. The police are now involved. If I can get a conviction under Part 3 of the Fraud Act 2004, 'False Representation', which is realtively straightforward, it will almost guarantee success in a civil court, and may even result in being awarded damages in the magistrate's court. But some way in the future, my hobby was renovating small boats/yachts, bringing them back to life, keeping me fit, a project, now I'll just sit and vegetate.. that's a real bummer.

You need some advice on the remedy of self help - literally taking possession of your yacht. There has been no effective sale since the seller did not have title to sell. SHe cannot convey ownership she does not have.

 

[yachtpilot]

Part III registration is meaningless in this situation.
In the absence of anything superseding it, the Bill of Sale upon the OP's purchase will be determinative of ownership rights.
What is relevant is ownership and it appears you had a Bill of Sale showing you as an owner of a certain number of shares in the boat, rather than joint owner of all the shares.
There has been no effective transfer of title since the OP, as joint owner, has not sold his share or (if joint owner of the whole) not consented to the sale of the whole. As has been said, the fraud is on the new purported purchasers.
If the sale was documented by a Bill of Sale, it would not be possible to sell it in the way described and on the facts as stated without a false representation as to ownership.
Being put on notice that you had rights of ownership of the boat, and therefore now rights over the purchase monies into which the boat has been converted, the auction house have converted your monies.

Thank you.. certainly the ownership is now a problem for the purchaser. The lady in question owned a greater part of the vessel in shares but to my understanding that doesn't award rights allowing her to sell the vessel, or indeed arrange for any major change of circumstances involving the vessel, without consultation and agreement of the other party. Unlike a company where shares give voting rights.
The purpose of my posting this was to raise awareness in joint ownership issues that can arise, maybe prompting someone else to consider their own position.

 

[yachtpilot]

You need some advice on the remedy of self help - literally taking possession of your yacht. There has been no effective sale since the seller did not have title to sell. SHe cannot convey ownership she does not have.

The boat is (or was), located at Cambrils in Spain. I have no way of contacting the new 'owner'. The Club Nautico, although aware of the situation are determined not to become involved.

 

[Poecheng]

OK, well things will depend on where the sale took place to determine which law applies. If seller in England, buyer in England, money shifting within England using an English website or the English version of it and the boat just happens to be in Spain, then very likely to be English law applying.
If seller was in Spain at the time (and we know the boat was) then it is not quite so clear which law applies and other circumstances will be relevant. The location of the boat seems to preclude self-help but, even if English law applied to the contract, the remedy of self help doesn't simply apply in Spain !!