how do you prove you have not exceeded the 183 day residency rule?

[sunsailor]

So you have bought a boat and keep it moored 365 days a year in the same Spanish port flying a red ensign. You spend less than the 183 days on it but then one day you find your boat has been impounded. What would you do to prove that you had not exceeded 183 days? Has this happened to anyone and what did you do to prove your innocence? Can you say register at the local police station when you are living aboard?

Thanks
Simon

 

[sailaboutvic]

One option is to keep records of flight in and out , I got to be honest , I not heard of anyone yet ask to prove they have not been in any country more then 183 days , although there always the first time .
There was once a problem with boats in Spain having to pay tax but it turn out most of them have been in the same Marina for years , working off there boat or own houses and working in Spain ,

 

[GrahamM376]

One option is to keep records of flight in and out , I got to be honest , I not heard of anyone yet ask to prove they have not been in any country more then 183 days , although there always the first time .
There was once a problem with boats in Spain having to pay tax but it turn out most of them have been in the same Marina for years , working off there boat or own houses and working in Spain ,

Although not based there, we're in and out of SW Spain quite regularly and have never been questioned about our length of stays. Have only met one couple who did have to pay tax, they had been marina permanent liveaboards for 7 years before being caught in Chipiona. Being part of the Shengen area, there are no border controls so people come and go freely but of course checks could be made on flight arrivals & departures to/from Spain if they really wanted to nail someone, very unlikely though.

 

[sunsailor]

Many thanks. I sleep easier if I remain within the law and am able to defend any questioning. It would seem that we are looking at lottery odds of this giving me any problems

 

[duncan99210]

Simply keep copies of all booking emails for ferries and flights that demonstrate you were not exceeding the limits. You would really need to upset someone to get asked about the amount of time you spend in country though.

 

[colind3782]

As above but you can also keep receipts for any purchases made outside Spain etc.

 

[sunsailor]

Many thanks for the good advice

 

[BobnLesley]

"...need to upset someone to get asked about the amount of time you spend in country..."

That's very true. In twelve years of part-time and latterly permanent liveaboard cruising, we've never had a problem with any branch of authority in any of the thirty or forty countries that we've visited; in those same twelve years, whilst we've heard innumerable second. third and even tenth-hand stories of yachties that've been hassled over staying too long, VAT, holding tanks, etc. we've actually met/heard very few 'it happened to me', first-hand reports and of those few that we have come across, amongst the righteous indignation, we've almost invariably discovered that the 'victim' had done something stupid, or more often downright offensive, to get the local Police/Customs/Immigration Officer's backs-up in the first place.

 

[sailorman]

"...need to upset someone to get asked about the amount of time you spend in country..."

That's very true. In twelve years of part-time and latterly permanent liveaboard cruising, we've never had a problem with any branch of authority in any of the thirty or forty countries that we've visited; in those same twelve years, whilst we've heard innumerable second. third and even tenth-hand stories of yachties that've been hassled over staying too long, VAT, holding tanks, etc. we've actually met/heard very few 'it happened to me', first-hand reports and of those few that we have come across, amongst the righteous indignation, we've almost invariably discovered that the 'victim' had done something stupid, or more often downright offensive, to get the local Police/Customs/Immigration Officer's backs-up in the first place.

Similar the Red Diesel in Belgium issue i guess

 

[milltech]

I have friends who have been living aboard for years in Spain with no hint of a problem. I'm told by shore-based warriors that what gets you are the credit cards, if you're going to exceed the time limit and are worried about it, use cash.

 

[macd]

I have friends who have been living aboard for years in Spain with no hint of a problem. I'm told by shore-based warriors that what gets you are the credit cards, if you're going to exceed the time limit and are worried about it, use cash.

True.
Daft to use credit cards, anyway, unless in the currency of the country you happen to be in. For us and pretty-well everyone we've met, liivng aboard is a cash economy.

 

[Boo2]

So you have bought a boat and keep it moored 365 days a year in the same Spanish port flying a red ensign. You spend less than the 183 days on it but then one day you find your boat has been impounded. What would you do to prove that you had not exceeded 183 days?

A similar issue arises in contracting circles wrt the 183 day rule for taxes and the general advice is to keep proofs of entry and exit into the country like eg airline tickes, ferry tickets, petrol receipts etc and wave them at whoever asks.

Hth,

Boo2

 

[RAI]

I suspect the 183 day per year in country income tax rule only get applied to people with addresses ashore. Increasingly, marina addresses are not being accepted by authorities, which is a bit of a cache 22 for them, If you don't live in the marina and don't live anywhere else in Spain (say) how can you be living in their country?

 

[Sybarite]

I suspect the 183 day per year in country income tax rule only get applied to people with addresses ashore. Increasingly, marina addresses are not being accepted by authorities, which is a bit of a cache 22 for them, If you don't live in the marina and don't live anywhere else in Spain (say) how can you be living in their country?

Mobile phone records are one way the police can check your assertions.

 

[RAI]

Mobile phone records are one way the police can check your assertions.

Then use wifi and Skype. Even so, as it's tax law, I suspect the burden of proof will lie with the individual, so the need is to prove one is out of the country for more than 183 days.

 

[Sybarite]

Then use wifi and Skype. Even so, as it's tax law, I suspect the burden of proof will lie with the individual, so the need is to prove one is out of the country for more than 183 days.

If the authorities attack you in France, the burden of proof is with them. It used to be the other way round but not now.

 

[lindsay]

If the authorities attack you in France, the burden of proof is with them. It used to be the other way round but not now.

If that is true, then it is an important departure from the norm ie the UK and Spain. I believe you.....but just in case is there any web site or source that would confirm this for France?


Thanks

 

[Sea Devil]

So you have bought a boat and keep it moored 365 days a year in the same Spanish port flying a red ensign. You spend less than the 183 days on it but then one day you find your boat has been impounded. What would you do to prove that you had not exceeded 183 days? Has this happened to anyone and what did you do to prove your innocence? Can you say register at the local police station when you are living aboard?

Thanks
Simon

There is a system whereby you can get the boat sealed by the Guardia Civil but it's not really worth the hassle. If you genuinely do not live aboard then the Guardia will know. They keep computerised records mainly from the form you are required to fill in on arrival at any marina of the travels of your boat or the fact it stays in one place then occasionally goes off to a few other places then returns. Typical usage for non residents visiting their boats from home. Then the port police or Guardia stroll around the marina and just look.... If your boat is closed up and you are not around for extended periods of time then there is no problem.

In the past the matriculation tax issue was not a problem and the Spanish Authorities couldn't be bothered to take 'illegals' to court however in this age of austerity things have changed and Guardia are required by the government to take the matter more seriously...

The onus in France as well as Spain is for the individual to prove they are not resident - I know as I was caught out in France when I thought I was behaving correctly!

this link might help -
http://www.michaelbriant.com/boat_import.htm

Michael

 

[sunsailor]

It must be a nightmare being in a legal battle abroad. Michael, thanks for the link to your website and for replying to this and my other thread.
Simon