honest advice sought

[bobgosling]

I love the look of classic wooden boats and am not too afraid of the maintenance work involved but the one thing that is putting me off is that the design is invariably long keeled and I am quite concerned about my ability to control steerage adequately in a crowded marina ( it's bad enough with a tupperware fin keeler ).

I like the look of Hillyard 8 tonners and others of that ilk so if anyone here has experience of such boats can you please tell me honestly just how bad is the problem ? Are they really such monsters to control ? I have heard that there is virtually no steerage going astern so what do you do about that ?

 

[Kristal]

I can understand your concern - very often, wooden boats are underpowered (compared to modern equivalents) which would at first give cause to worry about close-quarters manouvering. I discovered the secret very early on, having taught myself to sail on long-keeled wooden boats, and although my sailing has a long way to go, my skills at manouvering under power are pretty good.

In order to go astern, and turn, there needs to be very little wind, and it doesn't do a great deal for stopping either, but the trick is to do everything very slowly, and anything you can't do under power, do with warps or just by hand. I haven't yet had a situation in which I can't get Crystal slowly near to a berth and then use the bowsprit and shrouds to get her into position - usually, even though we have warps rigged, they aren't necessary, and I can even turn her through 180 degrees on an alongside pontoon without using a single warp. Obviously this is dependent on wind and tide, but it rarely fails if you think it out first.

Go on, join the ranks!!

/<

 

[Mirelle]

I agree with what Kris writes. It is not anything like as hard as people make out.

Unlike a fin keeler, these boats will sit still in the water for much longer, when stopped, before they start drifting off downwind, because they have more mass and more grip of the water, so you can maneouvre much more slowly and gently than with a fin keeler.

Indeed, going very slowly is generally the best plan, as the boat takes much longer to stop, once started. You can usually get the boat bows in to a space in a marina without much trouble, and to get out again all you need to do is to walk the boat to the end of the pontoon and start her turning to face out.

8 ton Hillyards are particularly easy, as they don't differ much in windage from bow to stern, so the bows don't blow off much (unlike my boat!)

A long keeler going astern in a strong wind will always (this is quite predictable!) end up putting her stern into the wind, because the prop is acting as a sea anchor and the boat is feathering downwind from the prop. Once you know this, you can use this to your advantage.

It is very important to go slowly and to use short bursts of engine power in "ahead" with the helm held hard, over, to deflect the prop wash as a means of turning in a small space. If you put in a short burst of astern to kill any forward motion in between ahed bursts, you can turn on a sixpence.

As Kris says, the use of warps and simple manhandling is the easiest way to do things in tight spaces.

 

[Gordonmc]

I have a Hillyard 8-tonner and normally sail single handed without too much drama.
On the occasions when I crew on a friend's bilge-keeler I am well impressed with her close manoevering... steerable astern and one-point turning almost in her own length in ahead.
That said, the Hillyard is far better behaved than my previous boat, a long, deep keel outboard powered Hurley 22. The Hurley would simply not go astern, let alone steer, largely because the prop was aft of the rudder.
Back to the Hilly... best astern treatment is to get a flow of water going over the rudder before trying anything, and take everything easy. It is perfectly possible to steer astern with slight movement of the tiller, no more than 10 to 20 degrees. Put her hard over and nothing will happen.
As /<rystal says, the wind can upset things, but should be predictable and made allowance for (famous last words).
And remember the plus side of poor astern behaviour is superior leeway performance relative to depth of draught, the Hillyard 8 draws just over a meter.
If you have any doubts about the above I suggest you do a sea-trial on any boat you are thinking of and do some astern manoevers in quiet water to get the feel of her.
You can then make up your own mind.

 

[PeterWillis]

Time for Francis_Fletcher to step forward in his alter ego as a skipper of Nancy Blackett and regale you with his (surprisingly untraumatic) experiences. Nancy being a 7-ton long-keel Hillyard. If you'd care for a taster aboard Nancy, it could probably be arranged.

 

[ianwright]

A boat is for sailing not parking. Not to say that parking doesn't matter, it does, but buy a long keel boat for it's good sailng qualities and get used to its marina foibles. It's not hard, honestly, and it is well worth it.
IanW

 

[Kristal]

Good point, sir - I've also manouvered Nancy into marina berths and found her very predictable (she has a lot more grunt than Crystal) and easy to place. If you fancy an 8-tonner, you should definitely talk to these trust heavyweights and have a trip on Nancy if it could be arranged.

/<

 

[Santana379]

Hi bobgosling,

With hobbies of sailing, fishing and shooting, I guess sailing has perhaps replaced your last recently outlawed hobby?!

You're clearly a man of taste and discrimination if you're thinking of a getting a Hillyard. I have no experience of Hillyard 8 tonners, but do have the privilege of sailing Nancy Blackett from time to time, a Hillyard 7 tonner. Despite a 6ft long bowsprit, she's not bad at all in a marina - we're usually trying to get in to tight berths because in the interests of economy, when asked our length, we tend to give the 28' LOD and not the 34ft LOA. I am no expert, and find my own Golden Hind extremely difficult and actually much prefer being on Nancy in a tight spot.

Nancy does have an advantage which /<rystal pointed out – oodles of grunt – the acceleration from her 30hp engine helps her to turn well, with a bit of forward/reverse shifting. Also she does steer in reverse, which is a very helpful. In Holland a couple of years ago I had no problems with parking Nancy wherever we were sent in a fleet of 100+ classics. We normally park at Woolverstone marina, which is in the river Orwell with the tide flowing through it, and we get by with no problem.

The 8 tonner is a manageable size, and warping is a reassuring option if things are too tight. Marina staff are invariably helpful when you visit, and will allocate a berth with a touch more turning space if you ask for it – after a while you won’t need it once you’ve built up your skills and confidence – it does happen, I promise.

Mirelle’s comments are important re. weight and windage, and Ian Wright is about 470% correct when he says you get a boat to sail, not to park. I forgive my Golden Hind, (which I’m convinced is the hardest sailing boat of her length to manage in a marina), all her foibles because she looks after me at sea, and is comfortable and reassuring whatever the conditions – I can balance the sails, let go the tiller, and go below to put a brew on – also I often just let go and go forward and sit at the bow. A reluctance to change direction is far from being all bad! The 8 tonner will be a great sea boat too.

On Saturday 28 May the Hillyard Owners Association is having a race up the Orwell to Ipswich Haven Marina – if you were in the area you could get a lot of comfort by watching quite a few Hillyards come in through the lock and moor up, including us on Nancy Blackett.

I expect you’ve found the HOA website:

http://www.hillyardyachts.ukf.net/home.htm

If you get a Hillyard I’m pretty sure you won’t regret it – my only tip would be to try and find one with a reasonably powerful engine if possible.

a donf!

 

[pelorus32]

Hi Bob,

We sail a 32 foot long keel Lyle Hess. Everything everyone has told you in this topic is part of the experience that you will have with conning a long keel boat.

But there is more....when you swing into a tight spot, use a few burst of ahead to line her up and then use the prop walk going astern to settle her snuggly alongside...you will feel very happy and satisfied.

Handling a long keeled boat is a life long vocation. You think that you have it nailed and then she'll teach you something new. What you don't have is the ability to power backwards with great agility and use your bow thrusters to tuck in alongside...

One recent bit of learning for us was when leaving Queenscliff, a regular haunt of ours, we left the pool and went out into the "cut". The current was running out at about 4 knots. After about 200 metres we spotted an in-bound ferry about to block the exit. Into astern and pray...what did we find out? With the current flowing briskly across the rudder we could steer astern like a fin keeler - 200 metres back, around the corner and into the pool - easy. Then for my heart rate to return to normal.

Give it a go, you'll love it and learn heaps.

Mike

 

[milltech]

I also found that the prop walk problem astern was really only true getting started, once the boat started moving astern she had enough way on for me to be able to blip a little burst of ahead using the rudder to correct position, while actually the boat continued astern. Dropping back into reverse gear a second time the serene backwards progress was maintained without a problem. Could be done over and over again.

 

[apindrans]

Agree with all the above. I'm relativeley new to a long keeled wooden boats and have yet to master the art of stopping in my berth without the the prop walk pushing me into my neighbour. On a light wind day I can come into my berth gently, leap ashore and handle the boat quite easily. However with a strong cross, or stern wind things get a bit tricky.

To help me I have rigged a mooring line which is attached to my midships, and stern. At the appropriate position I have put a loop into the line and attached a snap link. When coming alongside I can step ashore and attach the snaplink to a mooring eye. Forward way is taken up by the spring, and the stern is prevented from swinging out by the stern spring. Getting the geometry right takes a little experimentation, but if you get it wrong the damage can be repaired by a couple of licks of paint.

I practised manouvering Corio Vertue in an uncluttered part of the marina, and am quite adept at turning her using the prop walk to advantage, but going astern in a short space is still a bit of a lottery, so I avoid it, and concentrate on getting the right line and speed. Still, it irks me when I see a fin keeler come all the way down an arm in reverse, and without falter, straight into the her berth. Yet it's probably the skipper's capability, not the boat's underwater profile that allows such a manouver.

Stick with it, when you get it right it will be joy to behold.

Andy

 

[bobgosling]

Many thanks to all the contributors to this thread. It has certainly been food for thought. I will see if I can persuade a seller to demonstrate the handling characteristics.

 

[Santana379]

Do tell us all how you get on.