Hire me & me boat

poter

poter

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 Feb 2002
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2,127
Location
Still going south currently in Corsica for winter
www.fairhead.com
I have been thinking of hiring me & me boat ( south of France) to couples who would like to "Try" sailing. Its a great sailing area with even a trip down to Corsica possible. Obviously all the safety gear would be provided & the insurance would be upgraded to cover all issues.

It just seems a shame that I have many tears sailing experience & I would be delighted to pass it on...:D

However - what are the legal implications if any?

Shady is UK reg.
 
Implications of French bureaucracy probably involve becoming fluent and literate in French, making friends with the local mayor and quite possibly handing over your firstborn.

I'll let someone else give a proper answer.

Sounds like a great idea. :)
 
I dont suppose French law is all that different to English except reams more paperwork. The problems in Uk start the moment people start to pay to come on your boat. That's not the same as a sharing costs, and I am not sure where the line is drawn, but the moment people pay to come on your boat in UK law it becomes a commercial vessel, subject to the full burden of maritime law and regulations for commercial vessels. In Uk as long as the boat is not carrying more than 12 people the licensing requirements are simplified, but there are clear regulations about annual surveys, safety equipment carried, safety routines, numbers of crew, training and certification of skipper and so on. Also in the eyes of the local harbour master you automatically become a commercial passenger boat, subject to inspection and commercial regulations, and often being required to pay extra harbour dues. Here in Chi for example, you would have to pay a fee for every paying passenger who embarks on your boat. Then as a commercial vessel the Coastguard and other statutory bodies become involved in inspections etc.... all perfectly manageable but you need to know the rules and be sure you stick by them. IF the UK has all that, then you can be sure the French will want it all in triplicate!

Then there are the insurance issues for commercial operations..... which I wil leave to the insurance experts, but I believe it can be expensive to get adequate third party cover.
 
Oh Hum!

I understand the safety implications but why oh why make it so complicated, all I thought about doing was just to provide some idea about sailing & sharing some of the costs.

Its the same with the local authorities in UK unless you have police clearance. are not a sex criminal, etc etc .
You cant go into a school or home to impart a lifetime of experience.....

What a waste.:confused:
 
poter said:
Ermm French not too bad...

By the by this is NOT a money making exercise, just want to impart some of the joys of sailing.
Click to expand...

Was considering doing the same thing here in UK till investigations revealed the following;
1. Boat must be coded for category of water to be used in
2. Yachtmaster cert of competence upgraded to commercial
3. C of C to be for distances offshore to travel, boat to be fit for purpose as per coding.
4. liferaft alone for coding purposes must be serviced yearly if valise or 3 yearly if canister
5. vhf licence, sea survival and 1st aid all to be in date for skipper
6. over certain distances mate to be qualified
7. for the ability to take paying customers 20 miles from safe haven my boat and extra certification for myself would have required the expenditure of approx £3500.

8. Just going to stick with friends and family making donations to cost of diesel and berthing !!!

Happy Sailing..:)
 
I have a friend on the Hamble of whom some of you may know. He let's close friends on his boat for a small daily fee plus the cost of fuel/mooring fees there by Sharing the costs. We have spent ever summer for the pasted 4 years crewing around France, English south coast and Solent.

This sort of thing I can't see being a problem. It's non-profit, it's like taking a group of friends to a theatre show 100 miles away and everyone chips in for fuel.
 
I beg to differ, but if you are only looking for contributions towards the costs associated with the voyage then the vessel is not commercial and is outside the code requirements.

The actual definition is...and I quote from the MCA so this applies to all UK flagged vessels, although you also have to comply with local byelaws for the country you are in.

"If the vessel is being used as a "pleasure vessel" (defined in regulation 2(1) of SI 1998/2771) then the direct costs associated with the voyage may be shared. Such costs are considered to mean fuel and food costs, but not to include mooring, insurance, maintenance costs as they are not directly incurred as a result of the voyage. If the vessel is not being used as a "pleasure vessel" it is considered to be on a commercial voyage and therefore would be required to comply with the relevant legislation. The easiest means of compliance with some of the legislation for commercial voyages is to be certified under the MCA/UK Small Commercial Vessel Codes of Practice."
 
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Without an enormous amount of hassle, you will not get insured to cover that kind of usage - you will get away with it till something goes wrong, then one of your "passengers" will sue you out of existence.
 
tom_sail said:
I have a friend on the Hamble of whom some of you may know. He let's close friends on his boat for a small daily fee plus the cost of fuel/mooring fees there by Sharing the costs. We have spent ever summer for the pasted 4 years crewing around France, English south coast and Solent.

This sort of thing I can't see being a problem. It's non-profit, it's like taking a group of friends to a theatre show 100 miles away and everyone chips in for fuel.
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Any daily fee constitutes commercial as far as I understand the rules as detailed in the quote above, and you can't share mooring fees as far as the MCA are concerned. It can only be sharing of the costs associated with the voyage. I looked into this in detail before codeing my boat to comply with the rules. He's sailing close to the wind I feel.
 
The three issues to consider are

First where do you draw the line as per the MCA quote above? A fine line and some keep one side by offering "crewing opportunities" which is acceptable for example if you were doing the trip anyway and offer to take a mate with you, but if you then set up, say a transatlantic and recruit solely paying crew members you could be crossing the line - recent court case on this scenario - skipper lost. So the odd mate joining you OK.

Second. If you do cross that line with a UK registerd boat, then UK coding and rules apply, irrespective of where you sail. There is no "halfway house".

Third if you are operating from a base in another country then you may be subject to their laws on commercial operation as well. In some countries this can be very restrictive or even impossible.

So, keep below the radar and you might be OK. start acting like a business, such as advertising your offering and you run the risk of being seen to be crossing the line.
 
I never knew about the mooring fees not being part of a voyage. That's the most expensive part of a sailing weekend.

When ever a friend comes on my our boat they almost always offer to pay for the mooring fees? Even though I havn't asked for the contribution does this mean I'm in the bad books?
 
Insurance to run my boat as commercial/coded was pretty much the same as leisure, it was a straight forward decleration on the proposal form. Will the boat be chartered: yes, will you do bare boat: no.

Seemed that as long as I the owner was also skipper it was a formality. Legally the boat has to be coded and the insurance companies don't get involved in that. If it isn't coded and/or complying with regs then you have no insurance if you charter.
 
tom_sail said:
I never knew about the mooring fees not being part of a voyage. That's the most expensive part of a sailing weekend.

When ever a friend comes on my our boat they almost always offer to pay for the mooring fees? Even though I havn't asked for the contribution does this mean I'm in the bad books?
Click to expand...

It'd make more sense if by mooring fees they're referring to the annual mooring costs at the base/home mooring rather then the mooring costs incurred on that particular trip.

Perhaps mooring costs during the voyage aren't included in the prohibition?
 
There's a good chance that "sharing the cost" of a voyage means that if you bring two people on board they each cover a third of the cost - with you covering a third for yourself.

If they each pay half there's no sharing going on.
 
I did something like your suggestion some years ago in the period before the MCA rules came into force.

You are right not to expect a profit - because there isn't much!

I stopped when the MCA rule came into force - and received a call from the MCA a week after the rules came in wanting to do a full inspection.

A lot of "1 man band" people chartering their boat to defray costs - I don't think many, if any, survived.

You also have the question of weather.

If its too bad to go out do the customers get their money back? They paid to sail, not to sit around in the dock.

What if you get held up away from home base - do you have to get them home?

Whole raft of questions and problems.
 
semisimple said:
It'd make more sense if by mooring fees they're referring to the annual mooring costs at the base/home mooring rather then the mooring costs incurred on that particular trip.

Perhaps mooring costs during the voyage aren't included in the prohibition?
Click to expand...

That would be my interpretation. The intention - share the costs of the trip but not the overall costs of owning the boat - seems pretty clear.

Pete
 
commercial or private operations

This whole question is common with minor details across the world and indeed even in aviation taxis or buses
As said it is all about how you advertise or set up an image of the operation. If it appears to be a commercial operation in the ad then the customer has a right to an expectation of a high safety standard. That means inspection and coding of boat and qualifications of skipper.
If you take a ride for free on someone's boat you haver no right to any expectation. The boats insurance cover should cover any liability for injury of your guests.
As soon as you give the customer any reason to expect more by way safety or legitimacy then you must prove standards of safety and of course have insurance to cover.
The only safe way to do what the OP suggests is to emphasise (if possible in writing) that this is a private pleasure boat operation. You may accept donations for cost sharing after the voyage (assuming all goes well). Anything else is courting disaster and the law. good luck olewill
 
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