powerskipper
Well-known member
Post deleted by powerskipper
Hi Kim. *DELETED* *DELETED*
- Thread starter powerskipper
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PhilF
New member
Re: Hi Kim.
is this English?
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is this English?
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kimhollamby
Active member
Re: Hi Kim.
Hiya
Yes, been out in the wild for best part of three weeks. Nice to get a refresher on why we do all this stuff!
Boat (as in MBM Broom 39) pretty good on the whole, fascinating comparison with Sealine.
Short of pace for cruise in company escort duties, not so good as the F36/F37 downwind, reassuringly solid upwind, more expensive on fuel especially if pushed hard in lively weather even with 250 Yanmars. Strange to report, keel-less Sealine seems an easier boat to handle at slower speeds than Broom, perhaps thanks to more responsive rudders. The original Broom 38 didn't seem like this and MBM boat is first 39 so there might be something specific to this latest Calm Voyager and this will get looked at over winter no doubt.
Broom self-evidently offers more spacious accommodation than F37 (big fight among crew over capacious aft cabin). Aft shower room does however need an opening window, unlikely in tear-drop window, or at least a decent extraction fan. Also thanks to lack of portholes in topsides (probably a good thing overall) there is not a window in the boat that can be left open in a big downpour. Conversally Broom has much better fixed ventilation overall than Sealine and would expect it will stay in better fettle with less assistance over this coming winter.
Missed the outdoor stowage (lazarette) but egress with heavy toolkits etc not as difficult as expected with aft cabin versus aft cockpit layout thanks to aft staircase down transom. Side door and step below it also useful. Domestic electrics better than F37 (no major voltage drops at points I checked), and engineering side of the boat seems solid so far after about 2500 miles and 350 hours, albeit with variously good and less good caveats about access to some things and a serious gripe about the fitting of canister-type primary fuel filters with no drain-offs (why oh why are more manufacturers doing this? The last Sealine had Fleetguards which were barely any better).
No doubt you'll read a more cohesive report in the mag before too long but meantime the boat gave us a 237-mile passage on Wednesday that has gone somewhere near the top of my memorable cruising rankings -- need to get some closing notes on MBM Netherlands cruise written up for the MBM site which will try to do in next 24 hours.
The RIB we took (Humber 8m) fared less well. Brilliant sea boat but VP D3 threw fault codes and then started revving of its own accord, which was a bit scary, so serious brain fade somewhere. Put it into a VP agent (the good one at Delta Marina Kortgene) but diagnostic tool didn't hook up correctly and two weeks on we are still awaiting a verdict. Pretty poor show, sadly, as engine has lots of poke on acceleration and managed the boat fairly well despite being on the small side for an 8m RIB with plenty of glassfibre and 350lt of fuel (olus our kit). Ah well, I guess it looks like a bit of B&B cruising coming up in next couple of weeks or so.
Favourite tool of the trip -- have just spent some of my hard-earned pennies on a Garmin 279C. Like very much. Ability to interface with PC and run nav plans on Bluechart via MapSource software fun -- fair licensing, esp as you could run a second Garmin unit off the same licence. Having shopped around all over the place wound up buying at Marine Superstore Port Solent, beat most if not all Internet sites at time of purchase.
Also got to grips with one of the big Raymarine C-Series plotters for the first time. Suffered radar failure after major thunderstorm (cause as yet unknown) and it has an occasionally sticking trackpad but didn't look at the manual once, very very easy to operate. Okay, one other gripe, Raymarine have made my C Map cartridges redundant at a stroke by switching to Navionics.
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Hiya
Yes, been out in the wild for best part of three weeks. Nice to get a refresher on why we do all this stuff!
Boat (as in MBM Broom 39) pretty good on the whole, fascinating comparison with Sealine.
Short of pace for cruise in company escort duties, not so good as the F36/F37 downwind, reassuringly solid upwind, more expensive on fuel especially if pushed hard in lively weather even with 250 Yanmars. Strange to report, keel-less Sealine seems an easier boat to handle at slower speeds than Broom, perhaps thanks to more responsive rudders. The original Broom 38 didn't seem like this and MBM boat is first 39 so there might be something specific to this latest Calm Voyager and this will get looked at over winter no doubt.
Broom self-evidently offers more spacious accommodation than F37 (big fight among crew over capacious aft cabin). Aft shower room does however need an opening window, unlikely in tear-drop window, or at least a decent extraction fan. Also thanks to lack of portholes in topsides (probably a good thing overall) there is not a window in the boat that can be left open in a big downpour. Conversally Broom has much better fixed ventilation overall than Sealine and would expect it will stay in better fettle with less assistance over this coming winter.
Missed the outdoor stowage (lazarette) but egress with heavy toolkits etc not as difficult as expected with aft cabin versus aft cockpit layout thanks to aft staircase down transom. Side door and step below it also useful. Domestic electrics better than F37 (no major voltage drops at points I checked), and engineering side of the boat seems solid so far after about 2500 miles and 350 hours, albeit with variously good and less good caveats about access to some things and a serious gripe about the fitting of canister-type primary fuel filters with no drain-offs (why oh why are more manufacturers doing this? The last Sealine had Fleetguards which were barely any better).
No doubt you'll read a more cohesive report in the mag before too long but meantime the boat gave us a 237-mile passage on Wednesday that has gone somewhere near the top of my memorable cruising rankings -- need to get some closing notes on MBM Netherlands cruise written up for the MBM site which will try to do in next 24 hours.
The RIB we took (Humber 8m) fared less well. Brilliant sea boat but VP D3 threw fault codes and then started revving of its own accord, which was a bit scary, so serious brain fade somewhere. Put it into a VP agent (the good one at Delta Marina Kortgene) but diagnostic tool didn't hook up correctly and two weeks on we are still awaiting a verdict. Pretty poor show, sadly, as engine has lots of poke on acceleration and managed the boat fairly well despite being on the small side for an 8m RIB with plenty of glassfibre and 350lt of fuel (olus our kit). Ah well, I guess it looks like a bit of B&B cruising coming up in next couple of weeks or so.
Favourite tool of the trip -- have just spent some of my hard-earned pennies on a Garmin 279C. Like very much. Ability to interface with PC and run nav plans on Bluechart via MapSource software fun -- fair licensing, esp as you could run a second Garmin unit off the same licence. Having shopped around all over the place wound up buying at Marine Superstore Port Solent, beat most if not all Internet sites at time of purchase.
Also got to grips with one of the big Raymarine C-Series plotters for the first time. Suffered radar failure after major thunderstorm (cause as yet unknown) and it has an occasionally sticking trackpad but didn't look at the manual once, very very easy to operate. Okay, one other gripe, Raymarine have made my C Map cartridges redundant at a stroke by switching to Navionics.
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powerskipper
Well-known member
Re: Hi Kim.
Thanks Kim,
Sounds as if you had a busy trip, new boats always seem to have teething problems and there are always bits you like and dislike about your boat.
Interesting about fuel consumption, has there ever been a comparison done, across say all the boat of a similar size, I hope to see write ups on the garmen soon, and yes heard about the C.maps redundancy, that is going to and has made a lot of people rather . shall I say : rather annoyed!
Hope rib better soon.
Julie
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Julie
Thanks Kim,
Sounds as if you had a busy trip, new boats always seem to have teething problems and there are always bits you like and dislike about your boat.
Interesting about fuel consumption, has there ever been a comparison done, across say all the boat of a similar size, I hope to see write ups on the garmen soon, and yes heard about the C.maps redundancy, that is going to and has made a lot of people rather . shall I say : rather annoyed!
Hope rib better soon.
Julie
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://powerskipper.mysite.freeserve.com/>http://powerskipper.mysite.freeserve.com/</A>
Julie
kimhollamby
Active member
Fuel consumption comparison
I doubt anything specific published on Broom versus Sealine...however the mag will have solid data now and so it would be possible if Hugo so chooses. I have all the consumption data for the F36 with KAD44s around Britain, a right mix of cruising, and also now for the Broom on the Netherlands run, also a real mixed bag of slow, medium, fast.
In a way it is comforting to know the theory works. The Broom has a keel and loosely semi-displacement in configuration (I say loosely only because there is a lot of rubbish written about hull forms and it pays to look at the specifics). It is therefore less likely to be fuel efficient when pushed hard against, say, the Sealine which has a full planing hull with no keel. Haven't seen weights but it also has to be the case that the Broom is the heavier boat by a margin. Cruising gear should be about the same -- we punish both with a multitude of toolboxes, dive cylinders, spares and so on with equal enthusiasm although we also used to add a tender on the Sealine's bathing platform chocks wheras the Broom is davit-less.
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I doubt anything specific published on Broom versus Sealine...however the mag will have solid data now and so it would be possible if Hugo so chooses. I have all the consumption data for the F36 with KAD44s around Britain, a right mix of cruising, and also now for the Broom on the Netherlands run, also a real mixed bag of slow, medium, fast.
In a way it is comforting to know the theory works. The Broom has a keel and loosely semi-displacement in configuration (I say loosely only because there is a lot of rubbish written about hull forms and it pays to look at the specifics). It is therefore less likely to be fuel efficient when pushed hard against, say, the Sealine which has a full planing hull with no keel. Haven't seen weights but it also has to be the case that the Broom is the heavier boat by a margin. Cruising gear should be about the same -- we punish both with a multitude of toolboxes, dive cylinders, spares and so on with equal enthusiasm although we also used to add a tender on the Sealine's bathing platform chocks wheras the Broom is davit-less.
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powerskipper
Well-known member
Re: Fuel consumption comparison
Be a good article, planning hulls and semi displacement comparison and with the red diesel campaign , fuel economy will start to play a part in future decision to many. will stop nagging now!
I have not done a great deal with semi displacement boats but am surprised about slow manoeuvring, Do you have a bow thruster, Is she affected by tide or wind differently from the Sealine, getting nosey here and probably asking to many questions, are you going to be at the boat show over the weekends ?
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Julie
Be a good article, planning hulls and semi displacement comparison and with the red diesel campaign , fuel economy will start to play a part in future decision to many. will stop nagging now!
I have not done a great deal with semi displacement boats but am surprised about slow manoeuvring, Do you have a bow thruster, Is she affected by tide or wind differently from the Sealine, getting nosey here and probably asking to many questions, are you going to be at the boat show over the weekends ?
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://powerskipper.mysite.freeserve.com/>http://powerskipper.mysite.freeserve.com/</A>
Julie
Renegade_Master
New member
Re: Hi Kim.
Hi Kim when MBM decided on the 39, I thought it might be a bit down on pace for the cruising club and for the reasons you cite. Heavier then the F37, semi dis, 250hp as against 260's on lighter boat.
Must admit the accomodation was always gonna have the edge so its swings and roundabouts I guess. Hope she gives you long a good service.
Odd about the slow speed stuff too, my Crown with its keel gripped the water better than my keeless F36. But when you say more responsive rudders I guess you means entering the Marina type speeds as opposed to in and out of berth type handling.
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Hi Kim when MBM decided on the 39, I thought it might be a bit down on pace for the cruising club and for the reasons you cite. Heavier then the F37, semi dis, 250hp as against 260's on lighter boat.
Must admit the accomodation was always gonna have the edge so its swings and roundabouts I guess. Hope she gives you long a good service.
Odd about the slow speed stuff too, my Crown with its keel gripped the water better than my keeless F36. But when you say more responsive rudders I guess you means entering the Marina type speeds as opposed to in and out of berth type handling.
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kimhollamby
Active member
Re: Fuel consumption comparison
Aye, will be at the show most of the time.
With any luck stand staff on ybw.com area in Windward Hall should be able to find me, or PM for mobile.
The manoeuvring issue is something I'd like to look at again before saying too much else. It's a subjective view and the differences relatively subtle.
Of course directional stability from a keel can work against you a bit when trying to turn corners -- the payback generally comes in the way the boat sits in the water. Despite a lack of flybridge, the Broom has a fair bit of windage thanks to substantial upperworks carried well aft and also the canopy which stayed rigged pretty much all of the time -- however it sat fairly solidly in the water.
Sealine vs Broom on cross-wind -- vv subjective but feelings are the Sealine was more wind affected at the bow and the Broom at the stern -- former due to hardly any hull in the water forward, latter due to height of topsides and upperworks right through to transom. Neither of them particularly wayward and both weathercocked stern into wind as you would expect, the Sealine generally faster to swing.
Going to have a chat with Andrew Wolstenholme (Broom designer) about rudder design on the 39 over the 38 in case any changes. I was somehow expecting a bit more bite from them than they gave around the marina, but in any event one could simply just use the engines for effect. Given the way some boats handle I suspect others would wonder what on earth I was blathering on about if they had a go!
Sorry about all the waffle, genuinely intrigued by the differences and similarities myself.
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Aye, will be at the show most of the time.
With any luck stand staff on ybw.com area in Windward Hall should be able to find me, or PM for mobile.
The manoeuvring issue is something I'd like to look at again before saying too much else. It's a subjective view and the differences relatively subtle.
Of course directional stability from a keel can work against you a bit when trying to turn corners -- the payback generally comes in the way the boat sits in the water. Despite a lack of flybridge, the Broom has a fair bit of windage thanks to substantial upperworks carried well aft and also the canopy which stayed rigged pretty much all of the time -- however it sat fairly solidly in the water.
Sealine vs Broom on cross-wind -- vv subjective but feelings are the Sealine was more wind affected at the bow and the Broom at the stern -- former due to hardly any hull in the water forward, latter due to height of topsides and upperworks right through to transom. Neither of them particularly wayward and both weathercocked stern into wind as you would expect, the Sealine generally faster to swing.
Going to have a chat with Andrew Wolstenholme (Broom designer) about rudder design on the 39 over the 38 in case any changes. I was somehow expecting a bit more bite from them than they gave around the marina, but in any event one could simply just use the engines for effect. Given the way some boats handle I suspect others would wonder what on earth I was blathering on about if they had a go!
Sorry about all the waffle, genuinely intrigued by the differences and similarities myself.
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D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Broom
Interesting comments on the Broom, Kim. The 37 I had a while back was similarly slow to manouevre at marina speeds often needing a bit of throttle to swing the bow against the wind but the upside was it was less susceptible to being blown about. I once had a conversation with a Broom engineer (not a salesman!) at a Boat Show and he admitted they had been surprised by the sea performance of their CL hulls (yes I know yours is a KL but the philosophy is the same) because they were only designed to be inland cruisers with coastal capability. He was adamant that the OS hulls made better seaboats
Primary fuel filters is a pet subject of mine as well. Why all manufacturers cant fit decent Racor type filters is beyond me. My present boat is an Azimut and its interesting to see how much better the fuel management system is compared to UK boats. You get Racor filters with drains and collection cups plus water contamination alarms, remote fuel shut offs, sight glasses for tank levels and deck fillers in sumps such that spillages are contained and drained off. 1-0 to the Italians on this one
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Interesting comments on the Broom, Kim. The 37 I had a while back was similarly slow to manouevre at marina speeds often needing a bit of throttle to swing the bow against the wind but the upside was it was less susceptible to being blown about. I once had a conversation with a Broom engineer (not a salesman!) at a Boat Show and he admitted they had been surprised by the sea performance of their CL hulls (yes I know yours is a KL but the philosophy is the same) because they were only designed to be inland cruisers with coastal capability. He was adamant that the OS hulls made better seaboats
Primary fuel filters is a pet subject of mine as well. Why all manufacturers cant fit decent Racor type filters is beyond me. My present boat is an Azimut and its interesting to see how much better the fuel management system is compared to UK boats. You get Racor filters with drains and collection cups plus water contamination alarms, remote fuel shut offs, sight glasses for tank levels and deck fillers in sumps such that spillages are contained and drained off. 1-0 to the Italians on this one
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kimhollamby
Active member
Re: Hi Kim.
On rudders...nope, I mean slow speed anything. I'm not painting the Broom as bad but the rudders don't bite quite as much as I expected. Boats with slower design speeds often have larger and more effective rudders and that in turn means you get quite a lot of benefit from using wheel and engines. You still get that benefit, but not quite as much as I expected, that's all.
As you know the F36 rudders bite well for what is a 30-knot boat and woe betide anystudent of yours that crosses the wheel or abandons it in the wrong direction and tries to do it on engines alone
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On rudders...nope, I mean slow speed anything. I'm not painting the Broom as bad but the rudders don't bite quite as much as I expected. Boats with slower design speeds often have larger and more effective rudders and that in turn means you get quite a lot of benefit from using wheel and engines. You still get that benefit, but not quite as much as I expected, that's all.
As you know the F36 rudders bite well for what is a 30-knot boat and woe betide anystudent of yours that crosses the wheel or abandons it in the wrong direction and tries to do it on engines alone
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powerskipper
Well-known member
Re: Hi Kim.
LOL, know that one/forums/images/icons/smile.gif its the same on most of the Sealine shaft driven ones.
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Julie
LOL, know that one/forums/images/icons/smile.gif its the same on most of the Sealine shaft driven ones.
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Julie
powerskipper
Well-known member
Re: Fuel consumption comparison
Got my brain working and very intrigued!
Is the pivot point similar to the F37 or is it further forward due to the deeper keel.
Do you have to position the bow and rotate the stern around it, kind of point and push like a wheel barrow.
Will the bow slide easily using engines or is she sluggish.
If the stern is breaking first, due to wind are you driving her up wind and forward to hold position and sliding her into the wind.
On A turn in confined area are you using the reverse engine turn more as I imagine she will have a large turning circle with out any helm on.
Kim, I hope you can understand this./forums/images/icons/smile.gif
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Julie
Got my brain working and very intrigued!
Is the pivot point similar to the F37 or is it further forward due to the deeper keel.
Do you have to position the bow and rotate the stern around it, kind of point and push like a wheel barrow.
Will the bow slide easily using engines or is she sluggish.
If the stern is breaking first, due to wind are you driving her up wind and forward to hold position and sliding her into the wind.
On A turn in confined area are you using the reverse engine turn more as I imagine she will have a large turning circle with out any helm on.
Kim, I hope you can understand this./forums/images/icons/smile.gif
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://powerskipper.mysite.freeserve.com/>http://powerskipper.mysite.freeserve.com/</A>
Julie
BrendanS
Well-known member
Re: Fuel consumption comparison
Are not the point of the RYA exams that anyone that takes them can 'drive' any boat? Personally don't agree with that, it's more of a mantra to examiners. Anyone that thinks they can drive any boat after an Advanced exam is deluding themselves, even though that is one of the points of the exam
<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni
Are not the point of the RYA exams that anyone that takes them can 'drive' any boat? Personally don't agree with that, it's more of a mantra to examiners. Anyone that thinks they can drive any boat after an Advanced exam is deluding themselves, even though that is one of the points of the exam
<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni