HELP! Naval Architect needed to modify plans for charity in P.N.G.

yourskipper

yourskipper

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Living Water Mission is a UK registered charity working in Papua New Guinea, recently we have been awarded a grant from AusAid to build two classic sailing work boats around 36ft in length to enable the local communities to trade with Australia and between islands.

In the process of building these boats, locals will be taught boat building skills to enable them in time to build their own vessels.

We have the designs from http://www.smackdock.co.uk/old/download.htm however these need a raised aft section and perhaps more buoyancy aft to carry a diesel engine.

So we are looking for a naval architect to assist us, either in altering these plans or providing more suitable plans along similar lines. It is a great opportunity for someone who wants to help in overseas development and see their designs built and used, in what will be one of the few places in the world where traditional sailing boats are being used to carry cargo!

If you or someone you know might be interested please dont hesitate to call me on 01852 500 796 or visit our website www.livingwatermission.org for more info on the charity.

I hope to hear from you soon!

Many thanks

Cameron
 
That is a very fine smack that you are proposing to build - however with all due respect, are you absolutely sure that an Essex smack is the most suitable type of vessel for carrying cargo around the islands of PNG, and trading with Australia?
The Essex smacks evolved to suit their particular working conditions in Britain which are probably rather different to those in PNG (?).
I would humbly suggest that there are many other designs available for small commercial working craft which would probably be more suitable for the intended purpose - and be able to carry more cargo for the same overall hull dimensions as well.

But if you really want to build this type of craft, Ed Burnett is probably the person to speak to - here is a 40' gaff cutter from his drawing board (or computer rather!)
http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/134.html

I am in complete agreement re building the vessel in timber using traditional methods -assuming that there is a plentiful supply of timber available at a reasonable price.
But if there is not, then there could be an argument for teaching the local folk how to build fibreglass working craft. Pretty much any keen enthusiast can become a competent fibreglass laminator in a week or so, but it takes a lot longer to become a reasonable shipwright using timber.
You could even consider the pros and cons of building the hulls in ferro-cement (cement is almost universally available everywhere - in PNG as well?) or even steel.

I am writing this from Barbados in the West Indies, where up until relatively recently much of the inter island cargo trade was carried under sail, in schooners and (later) sloops with auxiliary engines which evolved very well to suit the local conditions - I would suggest that the types of trading sloops still sailing in the Lower Caribbean might be more suitable for your purpose than an Essex Smack.

For a comprehensive review of the working sailing craft of the Caribbean, may I commend to you this excellent book 'Clean Sweet Wind' available from Amazon :
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clean-Sweet...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257304278&sr=1-1

And here are some interesting designs for sailing cargo vessels from the board of Tom Colvin - http://thomasecolvin.com/designs.htm
Although most of them are designed for steel construction.


PS - Here are a couple of web pages which might be of background interest :

MacAlister Elliott are Fisheries Consultants in Lymington who work all over the world on all sorts of fisheries projects - http://www.macalister-elliott.com/

Working Boats have built various vessels for relief work in Indonesia - http://www.working-boats.co.uk/
 
re advice

Great advice thank you for all the suggestions.
Actually just last night we were discussing plans with a naval architect who suggested similarly that perhaps Essex Smacks are not the best design.
We are very open to suggestions so will look into all the above.
Obviously Essex Smacks are fast which is a bonus, but agreed their intended operations were very different from what we are looking for...
There is an abundant supply of good boat building timber, so wood defiantly seems logical from that perspective.
The trade winds are constant for at least half the year and it would be a waste to not harness these when possible, so the vessels need to be sail but with auxiliary power available.
All suggestions welcome and thanks to Bajansailor for starting us off!
C
 
Try the Australian National Maritime Museum at Darling Harbour, Sydney. Also the Queensland Maritime Museum in Brisbane. They will very likely have lines plans of older working craft such as the Torres Strait pearling luggers. Having owned a 36ft gaff ketch, I think that it is too small for any serious cargo-carrying. My ketch was a 1917 fishing ketch from South Australia. It had lots of 'belly' amidships, and this is necessary for load carrying. It also had only 5ft of draught, which would allow such a craft to get into small creeks in out-of-the-way places. Modern diesels are quite light in weight, and don't impose the loads aft that you are envisioning.
Peter.
 
Alternative designs to Essex Smack

Hello,

Thank you all for your advice!

We have been discussing the options and have taken on board comments about the Essex Smack perhaps not being the best boat..

The essential requirements for the design we are looking for are:

- A sea kindly and fast hull, with traditional (pref Gaff) rig, capable of sailing across from PNG to Australia, approx a few hundred miles of open water.

- The ability to carry around 10-12 tons of cargo, the majority of this would be small locally made products for sale in Australia. (and occasionally some timber, but not predominantly)

- The design must be of wood, as we have an abundance of very good boat building timber available, and a (relatively) simple design favoured over complex.

- The facilities we have available at the moment would tend towards a vessel around 36-38ft.

- The design must inspire locals, and will serve as the first step in a project that we hope will grow and grow, perhaps utilizing / building larger schooners in the future.

With our huge seafaring history in the UK we are sure there must be a suitable design out there, perhaps a west country fishing boat or similar...

We don't have funds to significantly alter any design and whilst Guy (the missions leader) is in the UK it is far easier for him to consider various plans and options than when he is back in PNG / Australia, where his time is taken up with the practical works.

Any further suggestions / advice greatly appreciated.

Many thanks


Cameron

www.livingwatermission.org
 
I have to say that 10-12 tons of cargo for a boat thats 36-38 feet long sounds a bit ambitious. Any boat capable would have to be very beamy and very full in the bilge and so, not particularly attractive or fast.
 
In which case I would suggest looking at Falmouth Quay punt designs. They are traditionally smaller (about 28 foot) but I think the general hull shape could scale up quite nicely.

If your not limited to a traditional UK type of design then I would also recommend you look at some Colin Archer designs, particularly his pilot boat and fishing boats. They'd probably give you most carrying capacity for size while being seaworthy and fast if generously rigged.
 
As your cargo will be small locally made products (of timber?) do you really need a cargo capacity of 10 - 12 tonnes?
There is no way you will be able to carry 10 tonnes of cargo on a 36' boat unless the hull is shaped like a brick.
Realistically, if you want to carry 10 tonnes on a hull that will sail well, you are probably looking at a vessel at least 50' long.
And the problem there is that costs go up in a cubic ratio to length, not linear!

I am thinking that if you are carrying eg carvings and small souvenir type things, a cargo capacity of 2 - 3 tonnes would be plenty - items like these would tend to take up a fair bit of room for their weight.
However then your capacity for carrying timber in bulk would be rather limited.
Re a preference for traditional, ie gaff rig - if for example a bermudan rig proved to be easier to handle, would it not be sensible to go for this instead? Its all very well embracing the romance of traditional sail in the past, but the crew of the boat still have to operate it every day to make their living, hence you should be looking at making all sail handling as simple and 'user friendly' as possible.
I would even be looking at roller furling systems for the headsails.

What are the typical weather conditions experienced in the Strait between PNG and Australia? Ideally it would be nice if they could sail on a beam reach each way, but the weather gods are rarely that kind - will there be some windward work involved?
Do you get hurricanes / typhoons there? Are the forecasts good?

I shall scan and post later some drawings of West Indian cargo sloops from 'Clean Sweet Wind' mentioned previously.
 
Woodlouse said:
In which case I would suggest looking at Falmouth Quay punt designs. They are traditionally smaller (about 28 foot) but I think the general hull shape could scale up quite nicely.

If your not limited to a traditional UK type of design then I would also recommend you look at some Colin Archer designs, particularly his pilot boat and fishing boats. They'd probably give you most carrying capacity for size while being seaworthy and fast if generously rigged.
Click to expand...

Hi, we are not limited to exclusively UK designs, I think Colin Archers are great, as you say if generously rigged maybe they would be fast... but I always remember them being really slow...

the Falmouth Quay punt is an idea, any thoughts where we could find plans for one?

I think Bajansailor is making some good points as well, about ease of handling and so on..

Bajan Sailor, I'd be very interested to see the scans you mentioned, the reason we were favouring trad rig is more that it is not heavily tensioned, and dependant on many 'chandlery' type items. Most of a gaff rigs fittings could be fashioned on site.
however maybe the Caribbean sloops you mentioned have a 'traditional' bermudan rig that could meet these requirements also... are there sail / rigging plans in the book?

thanks!
 
bajan sailor

in answer to your questions:

- your right the cargo would be mainly carving / souvenir type things, and carrying timber would not be common.

- typical weather conditions in the summer are trade winds, so it would be great beam reaches, however between the islands the winds are variable and there are often calms, during the winter, the weather would be too rough to trade in such boats, so the trading would take place in the fair weather season.

- an auxiliary engine is therefore essential to get the most out of these boats.
 
yourskipper said:
Hi, we are not limited to exclusively UK designs, I think Colin Archers are great, as you say if generously rigged maybe they would be fast... but I always remember them being really slow...

the Falmouth Quay punt is an idea, any thoughts where we could find plans for one?
Click to expand...
The slow Colin Archer reputation comes from the rescue boats that had small sail plans designed for sailing in winter gales in Norway. In light airs they don't move fast, but when it's blowing a force 8 there aren't many boats that can touch them. The other area Colin Archers get an unfavorable rap from is some of the replicas, scaling down rescue boat designs doesn't produce a particularly good hull shape and again they're almost always under rigged.

For Quay Punt plans I'd suggest the National Maritime museum in Falmouth. A designer such as Ed Burnett should be able to make a more informed opinion of the choice.

One other point though, if the boat is for carrying cargo then you don't want a counter stern as that will only restrict the capacity even further for the length over all.
 
Falmouth Quay Punts are wonderful boats - very seaworthy, powerful and fast - google 'Curlew' who is now at the Maritime Museum in Falmouth.

Uffa Fox was very keen on them - here is an extract from the book 'Best of Uffa' edited by Guy Cole and published by Nautical.

Uffa-TwilightP1.jpg


Uffa-TwilightP2.jpg


Uffa-TwilightP3.jpg


Here are some nice photos of a Heard 35 which is based on the Quay Punt hull design :
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/heard-35/heard-35.htm

And here is a 'modern' Quay Punt for sale - http://toucando.net/index.html

While here are some lines plans from Clean Sweet Wind - a wonderful book about the sailing working craft of the Caribbean in the '70's.

Here is a sailing lighter from Nevis - very full bodied for it's length, yet capable of a good turn of speed - the book notes that they have been recorded as sailing the 11 miles between St Kitts and Nevis in a little under an hour on a broad reach in the light condition.

CSW-Nevissailinglighterlinesplan.jpg



Mermaid (below) was built as a yacht, but based on the lines of the Carriacou working sloops - she was unbeatable in the annual Carriacou Regatta.

CSW-Mermaidlinesplan.jpg


Here is Skywave - she was built on the beach at Friendship in Bequia. The author of Clean Sweet Wind writes a lovely story of how he bumped into the Builder one day and ended up working full time and un-paid helping to finish building her.
And he later notes how Skywave totally transformed the fortunes of the Builder, simply by carrying some cargo between the islands, and doing a bit of fishing occasionally.

CSW-Skywavesailing.jpg


CSW-Skywavelinesplan.jpg
 
Last edited:
With the ideas of classic designs, this might be heresy. But look at at Bolger's Sir Joseph Banks. A design for trading, without the wimsey.
A
 
DownWest said:
With the ideas of classic designs, this might be heresy. But look at at Bolger's Sir Joseph Banks. A design for trading, without the wimsey.
A
Click to expand...

Phil Bolger was a genius, and a master at the art of lateral and unorthodox thinking re boat design!
Here are a couple of his drawings of the Sir Joseph Banks, taken from his excellent book 'Boats with an open mind'.
OK, this vessel is 95' long x 16' wide (with 150 cu. m. available in the cargo hold) - rather bigger than what the OP has in mind, but perhaps a scaled down version could be a possibility for trading on the proposed route?

Bolger-JosephBanksP1.jpg






Bolger-JosephBanksP2.jpg


The main drawback I can see though is that while the design lends itself perfectly to steel or aluminium (or perhaps even plywood in a much smaller version) construction, it would not be very suitable for building using traditional wooden construction methods.
 
I threw the S J B in from memory, thanks for the drawings Banj. On a project of this magnitude, might the OP not try to find a larger site for construction. 36ft a bit too small to carry cargo. A friend is looking at a similar situation, but at 80ft, as that is the cut off limit for qualifications that the islanders can easily afford. The brief is slightly different, one island a long way off, but a good sea boat is needed either way. Crew nos. would prob be the same, if that is a consideration.
A
 
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