Help! I think my forestay is disintegrating

[stranded]

A bit of context - I am very tentatively trying to do more and more on our boat - too much to learn - 20 minute discussion with staff and a couple of customers in Force 4 when just buying some threadlock which is the right one for the job. Anyway, today I was greasing the genoa furler (Furlex 300s). Managed that I think (though may have overdone it - how much grease is too much?). But more worryingly, when doing so I noticed a couple of strands of wire sticking out of of the gap between the bottom of the conical stainless bit that the tack fits onto and the top of the lower whatever is the part that the furling line drum sits on. Upon investigating a very little bit further, there are under there perhaps 20 or 30 wire strands all splayed out in there.

I couldn't find the manual and had no internet so had to leave it hoping that although this looked pretty damn untidy it was OK. But now back in civilisation and seeing how the forestay fits to the bottom terminal fitting, I can see no way that those wires should be there. I am hoping that when I go back with full plans I will find that there is a perfectly innocent explanation. But I fear that they are broken wires and my mast is about to fall down. Is there any cause for optimism?!!

Mark

 

[Rigger Mortice]

It's most unlikely that your mast will fall down. The loads on it when it is moored up are minuscule compared with when it is under sail. But it does sound as if you need a new forestay.

 

[stranded]

Thanks Rigger - well that's some comfort anyway. Best try not to think about how long its been like that and what might have been. We had a bit of an incident last summer when we had a halyard wrap, didn't know what that was at the time and tried to just haul it in. Unfortunately daughter on the electric winch (I know!) couldn't hear my shouts from the foredeck and just kept on pushing that easy little button until the furling line snapped. Guess that could have had something to do with it - asked the yard to check the furling gear when they were investigating/sorting out the wrap but suppose that would not extend to the forestay within the furlex.

 

[oldbilbo]

Sounds to me like a seriously 'knackered' forestay. It's not a question of 'will it fail' but 'WHEN will it fail'. Soon.... is the most likely answer.

Get it fixed now, and you're in for the cost of a new forestay/fitted.

Get it fixed later, and the cost could include a new mast, a new coachrook, a new headsail..... and a new daughter.

Your call......

 

[blackbeard]

Cast a very critical eye over the rest of the standing rigging. If you find any broken strands, replace the lot.

 

[stranded]

Thanks guys - will certainly get forestay replaced and check everything else with a fine tooth comb before putting to see again. Are there any other areas where there could be such 'hidden' damage? E.g. Insulated back stay?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Another thought. When you next go to the boat, take the genoa down and bring the halliard down to the stem head to take tension off the forestay. You might also want to think about reducing tension on the backstay, but not to the extent that the mast becomes loose. Probably not essential but it won't do any harm until you're able to get things sorted.

 

[stranded]

Thanks Rigger - I've actually got a removable inner forestay that runs to the masthead - had I not been hiding my head in the sand I would have rigged that as insurance, but didn't. I could go back down tomorrow to do that, but it's a 150 mile round trip, so perhaps will now ask yard to do that on Tuesday. One other factor - Nooka is currently out of the water (which is also part of why I was a bit wussy about poking around too much round the Furlex) but she is due to go back in next week some time - I presume when she is lifted the standing rigging will go a bit slack as the hull is squeezed - I take this is not a significant additional risk?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

To be honest, I don't know, but my guess is that it won't really matter. You will, however, need to decide whether you want the mast to be unstepped. It may be worth taking it down if you want a close examination of all the rigging.

The consolation is that you found the problem now. The alternative would have been a lot more costly.

By the way, don't be fooled by my forum name. I am not a rigger and wouldn't want you to think that I am.

 

[James_Calvert]

Nothing much to add to advice already given, but - having a newish Furlex fitted myself, and having dismantled the previous one to fit a new forestay - I was intrigued enough to look up the manual to see what your problem might be.

If you can see any wire at all, all you should be able to see is a nicely madeup swageless terminal at the end of the forestay. There shouldn't be any stray ends anywhere. But if the furling drum is correctly located, I think it should cover this area from view - could it have slipped up the foil somehow?

I'd have a chat to a local Furlex agent: it's easy enough to replace a forestay, but any problems with the Furlex itself may need parts/expertise from a specialist. They would also be familiar with the likely results of maltreatment such as caused your furling line breakage.

Incidentally, I'd be very worried if I could see 20-30 loose strands in a forestay, they normally have only 19 altogether!

 

[charles_reed]

The forestay is usually far less stressed than the caps - I'd certainly agree that the forestay needs immediate replacement and would be examining all the other rigging with a very suspicious eye.
Having had several rigging failures, I've never (yet) had a forestay de-stranding.
The suggestion to use the foresail halyard is a good one - needs to be highly tensioned, and immediately.

 

[jwilson]

There should definitely be no bits of wire sticking out. There should be (normally 19) strands all neatly splayed out into a special cone fitting that is part of the lower part of the Furlex. If that cone fitting is undone it is usual to replace the cone that goes inside the wire strands unless you are very confident it is in perfect condition. You definitely urgently need a new forestay wire and preferably also a rigger to show you how it is fitted.

Winch-winding a stuck furler as you describe in your later post is a classic way to damage the forestay. If it had been a rigger that looked at your system after your broken furling line incident he would almost certainly have looked for signs of forestay damage if he had been told the circumstances.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Incidentally, I'd be very worried if I could see 20-30 loose strands in a forestay, they normally have only 19 altogether!

I noticed that and assumed that, for some reason, 19/7 wire had been used. If that is the case then OP may need to consider replacing with ordinary 19 strand which is stronger. I can't think of any real reason to use 19/7 for a forestay.

 

[stranded]

Hmmm... Interesting point about the number of strands. I wasn't counting, but stand by the estimate. And thinking even more (really should have done that sooner!), they were quite fine, like, like, like, erm maybe a bit thicker than the strands in a domestic electrical flex. Would that fit to the 19/7? I can't imagine the builder would have used an inferior wire, or at least it would be out of character with the rest of the build, ditto the previous owners. Unless I suppose the original was damaged and they were somewhere that was all they could get.

Anyway, clearly time to pause my forays into DIY boat maintenance and get the experts in. Thanks as ever for al the very helpful advice. Mark

 

[vyv_cox]

You can find several examples of failed shrouds and stays due to fatigue at http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Fatigue.aspx. Not quite sure whether yours falls into this category but you may well find something that helps.

 

[Bilgediver]

Thanks guys - will certainly get forestay replaced and check everything else with a fine tooth comb before putting to see again. Are there any other areas where there could be such 'hidden' damage? E.g. Insulated back stay?

Meanwhile as back up attach your jib halliard to your bow fitting and keep tight.

 

[oldharry]

First of all, if there really are 20 -30 fine strands, instead of the 19 wires of conventional rigging wire, then your forestay has been made up in wire rope, which as suggested earlier is weaker, and should be replaced anyway.

Not quite clear whether there are just 'whiskers' of wire sticking out and the strands have actually broken, or a sort of 'parrot cage' of unbroken wire, which is quite common after a furler has been overstressed and has twisted the wire against the lay. Not that it makes much difference - it will still need replacing! Just that the overstressing of the furler will definitely have been the cause of the failure. If so the the rest of the rig should be OK - unless the whole lot is made up for wire rope!

 

[PhillM]

First of all, if there really are 20 -30 fine strands, instead of the 19 wires of conventional rigging wire, then your forestay has been made up in wire rope, which as suggested earlier is weaker, and should be replaced anyway.
I might be tempted to use both the jib halyard and if you have it your spinnaker halyard if you have one. Share any load in two places on the mast, if you see what I mean. When I had to take my backstay off to fix the chain plate we used the main and topping lift secured to the rear jackstay fixings, and that worked fine all through the 2012/13 winter.

I doubt very much if you would get a rigger to go up there with a knackered fore stay. So I would be tempted to get the yard to un-step the mast and get all the standing rigging checked out. Better to do this now while you are out of the water than later.

Depending on the age of your boat you MAY need to get this done every 10 years or so for your insurance, so if you have one suspect stay, now is the time to do the lot.

To give you an idea of cost, my 24 footer cost about £1000 all in, to do last winter.

 

[jwilson]

The OP says he has a (currently unrigged) removable inner forestay: that should be a very safe backup for a dodgy forestay. Old Harry's description of a 'parrot cage' of opened but unbroken strands is exactly what you can get at top and/or bottom of the forestay if 1x19 wire is twisted by brute force on a jammed furling gear. Really strange to use 7x19 wire on a forestay: the Furlex bottom fitting is not designed for this.

 

[stranded]

The inner forestay is 'unrigged' in the sense that it is stored round a big semi circular guide at the foot of the mast when not needed. I will ask the yard to attach it to its pretty sturdy looking spot just behind the primary forestay. Oddly perhaps, that is definitely made of chunky 1/19 (not sure what size but looks fatter than many and the same as e.g. on the HR 46 next door) - I had it replaced last year when I noticed a strand had broken - when I suppose arguably that could be made of one of the more flexible wires given how it is stored.

Re. the whiskers - there were a couple sticking out of the small gap between the bottom of conical stainless attachment that the tack fitting is on and when I looked inside (I am afraid I do not remember exactly how I did that), from what I could see there were the (pretty evenly) cut ends of the aforementioned 20 or 30 whiskers they were horizontal, end on to me.

Nooka was built 2007, in commission 4 years then ashore for nearly two until we took her on in Feb 2013. Had a full rig check done shortly after that and only gentle sailing since (daughters on electric winches excepted!), so am hopeful we may squeeze a bit more use out of the rest of the rig. All irrelevant if its busted though!