Have motor-boats changed as much as cars?

[CrawfW]

Have there been substantial changes in the performance of motorboats over the last sixty years – as there have undoubtedly been in cars?

Specifically, does a well-looked after and engine-d Fairey of 25-30’ offer noticeably less performance than a Rinker/Chaparral-type which will also cost less than half as much?

Similarly, are the Vee-hull shapes of Levi’s Triana’s - which were considered so ground-breaking in the 60s - now widely-understood and used/modified by every serious maker of sportsboats?

I am wondering if the general situation is roughly comparable to that of an E-Type Jaguar – still quick and fun but a Ford Focus RS-something will accelerate faster and go round corners at greater speed, whilst being safer and more fuel efficient?

I completely appreciate that the experience of each will be different – I am just trying to understand to what extent the underlying performance – emphasizing speed + seaworthiness - of motorboats has changed……

 

[PCUK]

I don't think so. Not by anywhere near as much as cars. The latest Axopar style hulls apparently offer better handling but at the expense of their appearance and of course common rail diesels offer better economy and performance but that is thanks to vehicle technology advances in general.

 

[BruceK]

Brilliant question. Yes and no on so many different levels but I think this will be a magnificent thread

 

[dunedin]

No.

PS. And one modernisation in terms of common rail diesel engines for emissions regulations can be a disadvantage on boats with more vagiaries of fuel supplies (comment applies primarily to yachts cruising and refuelling in multiple harbours, not Solent based)

 

[Supertramp]

A lot of the changes to cars have been driven by governments, legislation and technology. Examples are crash safety, infotainment and emissions/fuel consumption.

On motor boats and yachts the changes are more to do with materials technology (and minimising waste and environment damage), mass production and changing use (sports boats you can live on comfortably). I think there has been a long term shift away from displacement hulls to planing/semi planing. Although you were comparing planing types.

 

[Bouba]

Even cutting edge technology like electric drivetrains are available in boats...probably since the 60’s when Ray Hunt was designing hulls and Volvo built the first outdrive so that car engines could comfortably go in boats...which all led to the American suburban family being able to have a boat on their drive...I think boats and cars have been in lockstep

 

[PCUK]

Did Volvo build the first outdrive? I thought that was Perkins!

 

[Bouba]

Did Volvo build the first outdrive? I thought that was Perkins!

Well... I thought it was Volvo...but I’m not willing to swear on a stack of bibles

 

[oldgit]

First conceived in the 1930s ?

 

[Portofino]

In terms of performance and seakeeping, No !
The fundamentals of a deep V and Hp thatRay hunt , Sony Levi , Don Aronow, Amarti( Itama ) Theodali ( sp ) Magnum , + sone others omitted from this list because I have forgotten…are the same .

What has changed is the demographics of the buyer a shift from seakeeping / ride / performance to floating apartment.
Not criticising btw , holster your weapons folks just saying it as it’s it .

This accommodation maxing out and easy entry into boating with manoeuvring aids via IPS + other electrotwackery ( with shafts ) means the advent of mid cabins , V drives on shafts and a loss of seakeeping, or a nudge away from could be bettered if the weight was more fwd giving a better balance .

There are still a few niche builders focusing on seakeeping via deep V s and massive Hp motors .By deep V I am using the correct in naval architecture circles of in excess of a 20 degree deadrise , You are looking at Otam , Itama ,Magnum as examples. With deadrises pretty much where Sony Levi , Ray Hunt , Aronow were back in the day .

The thing is the headwind is the accommodation.
A deep V gobbles up Hp .Hp needs large capacity = more weight , more machinery vols ( remember tanks + g boxes to feed the motors ) .IPS by there nature means a flatter aft section so immediately you kiss good bye to the Ray hunt / Levi / Aronow hulls .
Mid cabins or other maxing out of the accommodation means shoving the machinery aft or miniaturising it .This is done with D6 + IPs or D6/+ sterndrive.Just beef up the 5.5 L with a supercharger on top of the turbo .+ natural efficiency gains of duoprops .

The same discussion can be had for “ sports “ cars .Imho they need to be mid engined …..END of discussion.
Once you have had a few mid engined and migrated back to something else irrespective of the price or badge , it’s not the same handling wise .



Thankfully with cars you can still buy mid engined cars and with boats a few proper deep V s with massive motors and pretty well balanced to boot .Sure just like a mid engined car there’s always a bigger interior vol version in the range should you choose.

In answering your final Q …” I am just trying to understand to what extent the underlying performance – emphasizing speed + seaworthiness - of motorboat “

Its gone backwards/ down ….todays boats are gen crap .Take the Fairline GT 62 it can‘t hardly make 30 knots at WOT .
The engines are tiny .

Same sized Ferretti ( on shafts ) Itama 62 and Riva 60 something? can make 40 + with far bigger motors .The Itama has a true deep V so can keep it up in bigger sea states .

Niche it’s not gone bust because they sell a handful a yr and it’s production ( Ferretti group) is amortised into the stronger selling Pershing range .So it’s not as if they have to keep a dedicated factory going .

So they are out there like mid engined proper sports cars ……..for those few who are bothered .

Thats the point most aren’t .

Did you mention “ E type “ .Well it’s doesn’t handle , never did back in the day = my mid engined point .A Muria on the other hand with equally 12 jugs .

The boats not only looks the part it goes in terms of its true deep V .Un like the E types which were ditch crawlers back in the day .

I ,ll get my coat lads .Most know my views on here .

 

[TonyR123]

The same discussion can be had for “ sports “ cars .Imho they need to be mid engined …..END of discussion.

...or rear engined. although I admit the engines are moving further fwd each generation.

 

[ChromeDome]

I believe cars have become similar to a point of boring. Due to development costs there are way more brands than original designs and they share all sorts of design and parts. More than often you need to look at the key ring badge to know the make and families needing a car tend to just go main stream, desiring one over the other without realizing that under the skin they are identical.

Boats, on the other hand, still are different. Indeed costly to produce and therefore different in style, equipment etc. and boaters seem to have far more specific needs and desires than car buyers. Alone the two main schools af sail and mobo makes a fundamental difference.

One or two engines / masts, sir? Not a decision relevant when buying a car.

 

[ST840]

No, thank god.

 

[Portofino]

...or rear engined. although I admit the engines are moving further fwd each generation.

If it’s Porsche 911 you are referring to then …..

Nope .
Porsche do mid engined as a well .718 today and even a hot one GT 4 .
Besides they have been mid engined well before the family touring cooking 911 came on the scene .


The first version 901 circa 1963 which was relabelled 911 ( Peugeot tm d the middle zero number ) had retro fitted solid lead bumpers to somewhat counter balance the engine .

As said it’s not as if they didn’t know about weight distribution is it with the spyder ?

Without being funny Tony you have been sold “ IPS “ in boats and rear engined in a “sports “car .I see a pattern a familiar pattern .
All marketing hype .

edit - Peugeot zero thingy the relabel of the 901 to 911 .

 

[julians]

...or rear engined. although I admit the engines are moving further fwd each generation.

nah, give me front engine (but behind the front wheels, not in front of) , rear wheel drive any day.

mid engined/rwd = snappy
rear engined/rwd = wrong
front engined/rwd = lovely powerslides all day long
any engineposition /4wd = boring

 

[julians]

back on the subject of planing boats - when did stepped hulls become more mainstream? think its only recently (last 10-15 years) that they've started being used on cuddy cabin sports boats (think regal use a stepped hull, no idea whether its a good implementation of a stepped hull or poor) and cheaper stuff. before that they were the preserve of the go fast american boats - your 70mph plus stuff.

I think a 25 foot fairey will still be better (by better I mean maintain a higher average speed in a given chop) than your average 25 foot american cuddy cabin though, would be an interesting test though.

 

[Portofino]

back on the subject of planing boats - when did stepped hulls become more mainstream? think its only recently (last 10-15 years) that they've started being used on cuddy cabin sports boats (think regal use a stepped hull, no idea whether its a good implementation of a stepped hull or poor) and cheaper stuff. before that they were the preserve of the go fast american boats - your 70mph plus stuff.

I think a 25 foot fairey will still be better (by better I mean maintain a higher average speed in a given chop) than your average 25 foot american cuddy cabin though, would be an interesting test though.

Stepped hulls arn’t new .Even this book ( sorry folks for rubbing more salt in wounds ) goes through stepped hulls .


There big down side is if the wave height smoothers the air step , then any drag reduction is lost .So beam seas or more are problematic.Today a builder can get a improved performance advantage for a given Hp (in the right sea state ) .
That given Hp being lower = cheaper to do .= keeps the tub competitively priced = vol sales .

The point is it not “ new “ .But has well recognised none arguably limitations .

Second para is a no brainier as that back to back test is determined by the deadrise. Apologies again for mentioning the “ d “ word .That’s the differentiator twixt the two you describe.

 

[Portofino]

nah, give me front engine (but behind the front wheels, not in front of) , rear wheel drive any day.

mid engined/rwd = snappy
rear engined/rwd = wrong
front engined/rwd = lovely powerslides all day long
any engineposition /4wd = boring

The Testarossa I once had for a decade btw );the drive shafts sprouting out between clylinder 5 / 6 .It was a flat 12 .
So most of the 5.L bock was in front the last pair of cylinders + the G box / clutch and last pair were hanging out behind .

Tbh it was a bit of a lash up because to do this house the diff where it was they had to raise the engine and CoG to site it between , actually in the sump of the flat 12 .They did this because it’s predecessor the 513 BB and BBi had a front mounted rad for cooling .This was problematic pumping water Fwds to cool it ( remember a 12 pot 5 L ) and basically cooked the cabin occupants ….no matter where or how efficient the AC was ,

So they side mounted the rads in just front of the engine - Hence the famous side strakes in the doors to gather air .The AC now kept the cabin occupants cool a cucumbers .At first they just designed wide open air intakes besides , US homologation rules , something about sucking a small child in radiators made Ferrari fit those signature door strikes .US was 1/2 the market the cash cow .
It under steered on the limit due to the narrow ( by comparison of the rear ) tyres .You never got near any “ snap “ .

The 360 I replaced it with was the same loadsa scrub off understeer + shed load of nannies to keep it on the black stuff . Too many nannies if iam honest imho .

But the best one is Nikki Laudas development……in his day the 3*8 GT 4 .It just 4 wheel slides .No snap no fuss no drama .Your granny could drive it FAST .
Also a 718 or Boxter in old money is on the money from a pork handing perspective.As are lotus .

 

[julians]

Stepped hulls arn’t new

I deliberately And very consciously didn't say they were new,I know they are are old as a deep v, but it is only recently I think that they started being used in otherwise mundane boats rather than just your go really fast stuff.

As are lotus .

Meh, I had an Elise back in the late 90s, can't say I've driven every mid engined car,but I much prefer the engine in front, just preference at the end of the day, no doubt all things being equal your mid engine has the capability to be faster round a track,but I'll take power sliding fun over lap times any day.

 

[rafiki_]

The short answer is that there is not the money in leisure boats to recover the investment that is really required to make significant progress. A new car programme typically costs £1 billion. Paid back over 500,000 car sales.