oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
Interested in folk views. Are chart tables a waste of space on modern boats in the ere of low cost GPS plotters? OR, are they still useful for paper chart work or as a micro office?
Have Chart tables become a waste of space?
- Thread starter oceanfroggie
- Start date
philhopson
Active Member
Chart plotters are only a navigational aid - not navigation!! The real nav lives on the chart table!
fireball
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The real nav lives on the chart table!
[/ QUOTE ]
That can void your warranty if you take a screwdriver to it! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
The real nav lives on the chart table!
[/ QUOTE ]
That can void your warranty if you take a screwdriver to it! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Poignard
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Have Chart tables become a waste of space?
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't say that! I spent a lot of time building a new chart table to replace one that the previous owner had removed so that he could "have more settee space"!
Have Chart tables become a waste of space?
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't say that! I spent a lot of time building a new chart table to replace one that the previous owner had removed so that he could "have more settee space"!
Captain Haddock
Well-Known Member
Is the skipper who doesn't use his chart table a waste of space?
alldownwind
Well-Known Member
Where would I put my Yeoman?! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Chart plotters are only a navigational aid - not navigation!! The real nav lives on the chart table!
[/ QUOTE ]
I cant remember the last time I did any nav on a chart at the chart table, (apart from Yachtmaster in June). I might take a chart on deck for pilotage, but the plotter, (one at the helm, and one on the laptop), is all I use in anger.
The argument that electrics and plotters fail is fair enough and, if they do, I'll revert to chart work. If I didnt have a chart table, or it was too small, or too cluttered, i would do what we did on a GK24 in the late '70's and use the saloon table.
The thing is, both plotters wont fail at the same time and, if the electrics fail, the laptop has about an hours worth of juice, and I also have a portable inverter with a 20Ah battery, so the chances of being forced into chartwork are slim.
Times change, things move on, and perhaps better use can me made of the space taken up by the chart table.
IMHO of course
Chart plotters are only a navigational aid - not navigation!! The real nav lives on the chart table!
[/ QUOTE ]
I cant remember the last time I did any nav on a chart at the chart table, (apart from Yachtmaster in June). I might take a chart on deck for pilotage, but the plotter, (one at the helm, and one on the laptop), is all I use in anger.
The argument that electrics and plotters fail is fair enough and, if they do, I'll revert to chart work. If I didnt have a chart table, or it was too small, or too cluttered, i would do what we did on a GK24 in the late '70's and use the saloon table.
The thing is, both plotters wont fail at the same time and, if the electrics fail, the laptop has about an hours worth of juice, and I also have a portable inverter with a 20Ah battery, so the chances of being forced into chartwork are slim.
Times change, things move on, and perhaps better use can me made of the space taken up by the chart table.
IMHO of course
Captain Haddock
Well-Known Member
I'm just not as trusting as you Richard.
Maybe it's because I work in IT, I do not trust anything electronic, just when you need it, it fails on you.
I'm pretty sure it's the 1st law of computing
For this reason and others I tend to always work on paper and use the plotter as a check to see if my chart work is ok.
So IMO a chart table is essential.
Maybe it's because I work in IT, I do not trust anything electronic, just when you need it, it fails on you.
I'm pretty sure it's the 1st law of computing
For this reason and others I tend to always work on paper and use the plotter as a check to see if my chart work is ok.
So IMO a chart table is essential.
Capn Pugwash
Well-Known Member
Each to their own etc. but I still feel guilty if I haven't plotted a few bearings and positions on my charts. Also you can't beat a good pictorial representation (and if I don't keep me hand in I reckon I would forget all the theory!)
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
andymcp
Well-Known Member
I still prefer to work with charts, certainly as a first point of call.
Everyone I've sailed with has had at least a reasonable grasps of charts and navigation. Fewer (me included) knows how to work the specific version of a plotter on whichever boat we're sailing that day....
Everyone I've sailed with has had at least a reasonable grasps of charts and navigation. Fewer (me included) knows how to work the specific version of a plotter on whichever boat we're sailing that day....
Talulah
Well-Known Member
Remember the debacle over no longer supplying floppy drives with computers? It's the same kind of argument. If you are brought up with it you can't imagine life without one but if you never had one so what, the saloon table will do.
I'm in IT and the guys with more experience still use some of the command line commands where as the newer guys rely entirely on the gui.
I went on board one boat at SIBS where the chart table had very much taken a back seat. It'll be a brave manufacturer though who starts to remove them from the standard build.
I'm in IT and the guys with more experience still use some of the command line commands where as the newer guys rely entirely on the gui.
I went on board one boat at SIBS where the chart table had very much taken a back seat. It'll be a brave manufacturer though who starts to remove them from the standard build.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm just not as trusting as you Richard.
Maybe it's because I work in IT, I do not trust anything electronic, just when you need it, it fails on you.
I'm pretty sure it's the 1st law of computing
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not that I am necessarily trusting .... although we trust electronics with our lives every time we board a plane, or get on a train, and i would guess, lots of other situations, (traffic lights??).
I believe that I have got some serious built in redundancy, along with the ability to pick up chartwork if all else fails.
In addition to the 2 plotters, I have a Raymarine GPS aerial which feeds the VHF, and a Philips navigator, and a Suunto GPS watch, (which i dont keep charged up, but could charge from the portable inverter if necessary). All of these would require plotting on a chart, but no big deal ...
I guess the GPS system could fail ... so back to bearings and chartwork from a last known position.
I'm just not as trusting as you Richard.
Maybe it's because I work in IT, I do not trust anything electronic, just when you need it, it fails on you.
I'm pretty sure it's the 1st law of computing
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not that I am necessarily trusting .... although we trust electronics with our lives every time we board a plane, or get on a train, and i would guess, lots of other situations, (traffic lights??).
I believe that I have got some serious built in redundancy, along with the ability to pick up chartwork if all else fails.
In addition to the 2 plotters, I have a Raymarine GPS aerial which feeds the VHF, and a Philips navigator, and a Suunto GPS watch, (which i dont keep charged up, but could charge from the portable inverter if necessary). All of these would require plotting on a chart, but no big deal ...
I guess the GPS system could fail ... so back to bearings and chartwork from a last known position.
fireball
Well-Known Member
I had a stark warning from a colleague - don't rely on the GPS and laptop software ..... this was 6 years ago ... I've had the laptop fail once since then, and it was an old laptop and quick and easy to replace the HD with a spare image that I kept.
I work in IT and I'm happy to rely on my electronic systems on board - I know the limitations of them and know what is likely to cause failure, as long as the exposure is minimalised then there really isn't an issue ... and for the most part its line of sight navigation anyway!!
I work in IT and I'm happy to rely on my electronic systems on board - I know the limitations of them and know what is likely to cause failure, as long as the exposure is minimalised then there really isn't an issue ... and for the most part its line of sight navigation anyway!!
fireball
Well-Known Member
Ah - that said, I wouldn't be without a chart table .... its a great place to use as a workbench for all the soldering oh and I need to put the laptop keyboard and mouse somewhere!! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Poignard
Well-Known Member
I have to confess to actually liking chartwork. And, when I can, I does what I likes!
G
Guest
Guest
I find that it falls into two categories for me ...
a) The paper job to plan and oversee the whole trip due to make. ie - recent trip across Baltic to Gotland ... thence to Archipelago. I spent ages on paper looking at all the ways / alternatives ... direct / via Gotland ... over top / through Farosund etc. When it came to the Archipelago though ... the mass of islands - even to a trained navigator as I was .. it was not so easy to plan a course through it .. having never been there before. The plotter and PC based charting then came into their own ... the plotter auto displayed ferry routes / rec'd routes etc. That and the paper chart sorted it nicely (yes Jenku - really worked wonders on his paper chart !)
b) On passage - the plotter was the bees-knees .... providing that instant plot and track. I have to admit that laziness crept in and I daresay many would admit if pushed that they succumb as well ... the paper plot got less and less as passage wore on ... The return journey - as we had no autohelm - it had gone PHUT ! - meant that plotting manually would be hands of helm.
So IMHO - it all depends on circumstances ... sad to see the old paper chart coming out less - but making it generally more easy for many to stay out of trouble.
I also have a pet theory that more and more discussions about preserving Paper plot is because the electronic scene is slowly taking over ... witness Commercial shipping with double banked ECDS etc. Called Evolution.
I would love a chart table in my tub ... but no room unless I do as another owner did - rip out original cabin stuff and redesign. A nice varnished chart table ... mmmmm Till then its the saloon table - after wiping of the egg / butter / ketchup stains of course !!
a) The paper job to plan and oversee the whole trip due to make. ie - recent trip across Baltic to Gotland ... thence to Archipelago. I spent ages on paper looking at all the ways / alternatives ... direct / via Gotland ... over top / through Farosund etc. When it came to the Archipelago though ... the mass of islands - even to a trained navigator as I was .. it was not so easy to plan a course through it .. having never been there before. The plotter and PC based charting then came into their own ... the plotter auto displayed ferry routes / rec'd routes etc. That and the paper chart sorted it nicely (yes Jenku - really worked wonders on his paper chart !)
b) On passage - the plotter was the bees-knees .... providing that instant plot and track. I have to admit that laziness crept in and I daresay many would admit if pushed that they succumb as well ... the paper plot got less and less as passage wore on ... The return journey - as we had no autohelm - it had gone PHUT ! - meant that plotting manually would be hands of helm.
So IMHO - it all depends on circumstances ... sad to see the old paper chart coming out less - but making it generally more easy for many to stay out of trouble.
I also have a pet theory that more and more discussions about preserving Paper plot is because the electronic scene is slowly taking over ... witness Commercial shipping with double banked ECDS etc. Called Evolution.
I would love a chart table in my tub ... but no room unless I do as another owner did - rip out original cabin stuff and redesign. A nice varnished chart table ... mmmmm Till then its the saloon table - after wiping of the egg / butter / ketchup stains of course !!
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
Hi Folks, thanks for the interesting response. The poll stats speaks for itself, quite a clear result.
I wasn't really asking a question about GPS v's paper charts, more about the use of space issue in an era when the dedicated chart table may not be used as much as in the past, especially when the saloon table is available.
For myself I like to plan passages on my laptop in conjunction with looking at paper charts for the big picture, but all the plotting done on laptop or the plotter itself. Then download the lot to the onboard plotters. However I do also like to use the paper and pencil, mainly to kill the time and see how acurate I can be. Also the big picture element is useful for ad-hoc changes of plan.
I have a reasonable level of trust in the technology, especially as I have redundancy and fail over systems (eg 3 separately powered plotters and antennae, plus paper as the final fail over, radar, and sounder). Anyway I suspect many can DR navigate mentally quite well even on long coastal and offshore passages - it's hardly rocket science now is it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif The eyeball seems to be the most useful nav aid!
Back to the chart table, I find I use the paper at home on the kitchen table for 'big picture' planning, on the saloon table for adjustments, and in the cockpit for DR eyeballing and plotting the odd fix, HBC, etc, for the fun of it and to kill time. (ie as well as the on board plotter)
As richard said we each have to totally trust electronics every time we fly, take a train or even drive a car, so why not on a boat. It is interesting though that the worlds navys still plot using paper charts, whilest at the same time some of them launch smart missiles with cm acuracy at so called 'targets' 100s of miles away using only electronics.
Each on to their own, and it's clear most are very fond of the chart table and prepared to give it the space required, OR is it really the skippers private on board den, the one place swmbo cannot venture! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I wasn't really asking a question about GPS v's paper charts, more about the use of space issue in an era when the dedicated chart table may not be used as much as in the past, especially when the saloon table is available.
For myself I like to plan passages on my laptop in conjunction with looking at paper charts for the big picture, but all the plotting done on laptop or the plotter itself. Then download the lot to the onboard plotters. However I do also like to use the paper and pencil, mainly to kill the time and see how acurate I can be. Also the big picture element is useful for ad-hoc changes of plan.
I have a reasonable level of trust in the technology, especially as I have redundancy and fail over systems (eg 3 separately powered plotters and antennae, plus paper as the final fail over, radar, and sounder). Anyway I suspect many can DR navigate mentally quite well even on long coastal and offshore passages - it's hardly rocket science now is it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif The eyeball seems to be the most useful nav aid!
Back to the chart table, I find I use the paper at home on the kitchen table for 'big picture' planning, on the saloon table for adjustments, and in the cockpit for DR eyeballing and plotting the odd fix, HBC, etc, for the fun of it and to kill time. (ie as well as the on board plotter)
As richard said we each have to totally trust electronics every time we fly, take a train or even drive a car, so why not on a boat. It is interesting though that the worlds navys still plot using paper charts, whilest at the same time some of them launch smart missiles with cm acuracy at so called 'targets' 100s of miles away using only electronics.
Each on to their own, and it's clear most are very fond of the chart table and prepared to give it the space required, OR is it really the skippers private on board den, the one place swmbo cannot venture! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
Again the poll was meant to be about the space issue rather than paper v's 5.1 volts
Rooster
Well-Known Member
You need the chart table to put the laptop on for navigating.
LymingtonPugwash
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Is the skipper who doesn't use his chart table a waste of space?
[/ QUOTE ]
Must say that I am staggered that there are would be serious sailing people out there who would even consider not backing up the electronic systems with their own plots and calcs!
Bearing in mind that electrical / electronic systems and seawater make the worse possible bedfellows, I've lost count of the number of times over the last 30 years when electronics have let me down and I have had to fall back on old time knowledge! Furthermore, as Sods law of the sea states, when 'it' happens, it will most likely be at the most inappropriate time....... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I love modern electronics and buy every aid and gadget I can and am always on the look out for more, but I would never rely solely on them.
A good chart table is still one of the serious selection criteria I use when choosing a new boat.
Is the skipper who doesn't use his chart table a waste of space?
[/ QUOTE ]
Must say that I am staggered that there are would be serious sailing people out there who would even consider not backing up the electronic systems with their own plots and calcs!
Bearing in mind that electrical / electronic systems and seawater make the worse possible bedfellows, I've lost count of the number of times over the last 30 years when electronics have let me down and I have had to fall back on old time knowledge! Furthermore, as Sods law of the sea states, when 'it' happens, it will most likely be at the most inappropriate time....... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I love modern electronics and buy every aid and gadget I can and am always on the look out for more, but I would never rely solely on them.
A good chart table is still one of the serious selection criteria I use when choosing a new boat.