Harwich to Ramsgate

[curtius]

I'm planning a trip to Ramsgate next Tuesday. The tides are not ideal but crew priorities dictate timing. We will be leaving Shotley at 8.00 am, at around HW and therefore will have the tide against us for the first 6 hours. In order to mitigate this I plan to take the 'outside' route via Cork Sand NC, Roughs Tower, Trinity and around the outside of Kentish Knock to North Foreland. As a first timer across the Estuary I'd appreciate any comments/suggestions on this plan.

 

[NUTMEG]

Er, check your fuel is clean!

Sorry.

 

[wingdiver]

That's the route we always take. Plus we would also leave at HW Harwich.

 

[tillergirl]

Got me tempted since it's not nice outside to knock up an 'outside' route planning table.

I'm with Wingdiver. It's not that terrible because you get the best of the conveyor in the last part of the passage down to Ramsgate. Taking the rejected 'inside' route leaving at HW Sheerness - 1 (0815 BST), I reckon at 5 kts, it's going to take you 8hrs 15 minutes approx. Leave at 12 noon and you can knock an hour off.

What is your intended average boat speed likely to be?

 

[curtius]

For average boat speed I usually reckon on a conservative 4 kts.

The idea of leaving later with a shorter passage time does appeal. Would the suggested 'inside' route use the Medusa Channel, across to the Sunk head Tower and down Black Deep to Foulgers Gat and then on to North Foreland?

 

[tillergirl]

OK. I would have to check times at 4kts.

Inside route is either as you say or from the Medusa, crossing the Swin diagonally to a waypoint near the Barrow No 2 and across the Sunk Sand where there is 3m at CD and across to Foulger's. There is no time difference so its a matter of whether one is better than the other for wind direction or whether you want to join the big ships in the Black Deep or cross the Sunk Sand (which doesn't have to be a drama). Starting at 8am does give you a pretty adverse tide in the Black Deep which is largely where you gain the time in starting later.

Distances - Outside route is 46.23nm, inside via the Black Deep 39.43nm or via the Swin and Little Sunk 38.78nm.

I'll have a look at 4kts.

 

[tillergirl]

At 4kts leaving at 8.15 expect a 10 hour passage at 4kts. This on an inside route brings you an adverse bit of tide in the Black Deep. Up till then you have been crossing the tide and there isn't a vast difference between flood and ebb tides. If you delay and leave at 10.15BST expect 9hr 15 minutes; leave at 11.15BST expect 9 hrs BUT this gets you to Ramsgate on the cusp of the tide turning against you so if you fall behind schedule you may find progress down the North Foreland a bit tedious.

Remember this is passage planning not a train timetable - umm thinks, that's not the best analogy but you know what I mean.

I am playing with some tables for the outside route - don't look too difficult to knock up so I might have a go during the day and may have some comparative data for you by tomorrow - except that the power is being cut off tomorrow so I may be off-line.

 

[curtius]

Thanks tillergirl, I am not averse to crossing the Sunk Sand taking note of previous posts, but to get to Barrow No 2 would need to cross the East Swin channel presumably from SW of NE Gunfleet ECB? Is the East Swin less busy than Black Deep? Forecast wind for Tues is currently W so a more northerly route may be more comfortable. Appreciate your input.

 

[tillergirl]

Oh yes, East Swin is less busy, oudles of room - and what there is will be smaller (time to brighten the post with pictures!): This in the Barrow Deep - one of the Crossrail/Crouch craft heading up towards Harwich.



rather than this chap in the Black Deep with Mystique's knoll at the SW Sunk in between:

[URL=http://s217.photobucket.com/user/rgaspar_album/media/P1030878.jpg.html]

Remember also that the PLA ask us to avoid the Black Deep which is now a Deep Water route with extra marking (yellow special marks with X topmarks) in the middle to show where the deepest channel is. They accept of course that at least we need to cross it otherwise Trinity House would not have buoyed Foulger's.

There is a chartlet on the website showing the depths over the Little Sunk. This fellow (a Belgium) is sailing diagonally across the Little Sunk:

[URL=http://s217.photobucket.com/user/rgaspar_album/media/P1010859.jpg.html]

The crew boats from Brightlingsea for the London Array construction used the Little Sunk as their crossing point. There is a wide gap (mile and a half from memory) twix the unmarked wreckage of the Little Sunk Beacon (to the NE of the crossing point) and three wrecks (to the SW). The sand is nice and flat in between and appears to the best of my knowledge to alter little in terms of depth. The chartlet is based on 2012 data.

 

[curtius]

Thanks again tillergirl, it seems to be a toss-up between the East Swin 'inside' route and the Kentish Knock 'outside' route. Would be interested in your comparative times for the 'outside' route.

 

[tillergirl]

Pretty much finished the table but have to get ready to go out (SWMBO's birthday). Might finish it later tonight. Isn't much to do. I'm kind of interested in the difference. I have always stopped short of the outside route because the book has to stop somewhere and technically I thought it not 'crossing' the estuary. But maybe I should do a supplement.

 

[Vara]

What a splendid idea, just been looking at that route, would save me loads of time.

 

[pvb]

I prefer the outside route, much less stressful!

 

[Colvic Watson]

This is the route we took last year and will take in two weeks time - we used Fisherman's last year. I put the average speed in at 5.6 knots because we can do 4.2ish knots across the tide but really pick up a nice tide once we're out of Black Deep just after LW - if I've got that right! We were doing a steady 6.5 knots soon after but we were motoring half the time when the fog kept coming down and the wind dropped.

Suggestions welcome.

 

[tillergirl]

Outside route - Starting at Cliff Foot - Cork Sand Beacon - Roughs Tower - Long Sand Head - dropping down outside but parallel with the Kentish Knock - passing west of the Thanet wind farm - and down to Ramsgate. 4 kts Neap tides departing 0815BST on Tuesday - 11 hrs 12 minutes approx. Leave at 1115 = 10 hours. Leave at 1215BST = 10 and a half hours.

So it takes longer basically because the passage is longer. Arguably it is slightly more efficient ie you are going 8 miles further and leaving at 1115BST it is only taking you an hour longer.

I ought to put a slight reservation on this, that I have not double checked the table yet. I can't see that I've made any errors but I'll check in the morning and when the power is restored (they are renewing the power lines tomorrow) I'll post if a correction is necessary.

 

[tillergirl]

Completed my cross checks of the formulae and some amendments made.

Departing 0815 BST = 11 hours 13 minutes
Departing 1115 BST = 10 hours 55 minutes
Departing 1215 BST = 10 hours 54 minutes (gains from slacker tide earlier are lost by loss of tide towards Ramsgate).

So I tried departing at 1015 BST = 10 hours 42 minutes

So I thought I would try departing at 0915 = 11 hours.

Conclusion: ignoring better wind direction issues, the inside route is quicker because it's shorter. There is no obvious benefit tide wise going inside or outside.

 

[Colvic Watson]

If you're going on to Dover and using the inside route and a through water average speed of about 5knots, am I right in my calculation of Foulgers at low water? It could get very tedious if we don't have enough tide to get us there.

 

[tillergirl]

If you're going on to Dover and using the inside route and a through water average speed of about 5knots, am I right in my calculation of Foulgers at low water? It could get very tedious if we don't have enough tide to get us there.

Leaving Harwich (Cliff Foot) at HW Sheerness on Springs, gets you to Ramsgate (via Blk Deep and Foulger's) with an hour left of south going tide. At 6kts you get to Ramsgate with 2 hours of south going tide - ergo at 5.5kts ......

 

[curtius]

Taking account of the timings provided my preference is now to use the inside route, particularly as I would like to avoid the adverse tide at the end of a long day! The East Swin route has a marginal time advantage over the Black Deep route but has the disadvantage of needing to cross a 3m shoal with a 1.8m keel at LW so I think I shall be using the route proposed by Lazy Kipper, starting out at about 1030. Maybe try the outer route on another occasion. Anyway, it has been a most illuminating exercise, thanks all for your input.

 

[tillergirl]

Nothing wrong with the Black Deep route. No doubt you've seen the download for Foulger's Gat.

I must do the table for the outside route northwards sometime but right now I think I fancy a day's sailing.......

Hope you enjoy the trip. Feedback on the timings you actually experience is always useful.