Hanse rudder mystery

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matsandys

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I'm hoping you can see attached photos. We recently delivered this new boat in the Med. It was a rough trip with various technical glitches, but upon arrival and haul-out we discovered one almighty glitch!

So, my questions:

1. Is it possible to sail a boat 1000nm without realising half the rudder is missing?
2. Is it possible to cause this amount of damage to a rudder without realising?
2. Does the splitting of the upper section suggest lower impact .... or something else? How did it happen?
4. Do we sack the skipper or blame the builders?

I've seen a few threads on Hanse rudder failures. Hoping there are some surveyors out there twiddling their thumbs .....
 

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I have lost a rudder a bit at a time. Do not know exactly when it started to disappear which is a problem in answering your question. AT first there was no obvious problem in light airs, however as the wind rose we had problems holding a course. I was new on the boat and spent 10 hours balancing the sails. Reef main NO 1 genoa, Full main, NO 3 jib etc. I had diminishing success in solving the problem of excessive helm, and loss of directional control. We could hols a broad to close reach. In daylight lowering a man by his boots over the side to look the rudder was down to 30%.
I would guess that in reasonable conditions, not trying to hole the boat on its ear up wind your crew could have traveled some distance with not much more than mumblings about the Cr*p boat lack of feel and dont like this from the crew.

Loadings on rudders are high it is difficult to say if there was contact with an object.

I have heard things bumping the hull that if hit square on may cause a problem.
 
I have seen this type of damage before where a yacht has been pulled off a grounding.
There are several manuafacturers where the bottom of the rudder is almost level with the bottom of the keel.
When the yachts is pulled off a grounding the yacht gets spun around causing the rudder to drag against the sea bed. The rudder bananas, splits open and sometimes breaks off.
 
Talulah said:
I have seen this type of damage before where a yacht has been pulled off a grounding.
There are several manuafacturers where the bottom of the rudder is almost level with the bottom of the keel.
When the yachts is pulled off a grounding the yacht gets spun around causing the rudder to drag against the sea bed. The rudder bananas, splits open and sometimes breaks off.
Click to expand...

This rudder is quite a bit shallower than the keel. That is part of the mystery. The skipper didn't go stern-to anywhere. So how could the rudder have been damaged. The keel is fine.
 
Could the yacht have gone over a mooring or anchor chain? The keel might have rolled over the chain but caught the rudder. Have a close look at the forward edge of the keel and bulb.
 
Doubt anybody is to "blame". That looks very much like impact damage. The bottom of the blade is sacrificial in that it will break off rather than bending the stock. The scraping on the hull suggests the rudder has been knocked back and turned. Surprising nobody seemed to notice the impact, but losing that relatively small amount of area would not make a huge difference to steering except in extreme conditions.
 
Remember the case of the Falmouth Charter boat that 'lost' its keel in the Scillies and no one noticed for several weeks.

This is only quite a small part of the rudder and doubt its loss would be noticeable in normal conditions
 
Tranona said:
Doubt anybody is to "blame". That looks very much like impact damage. The bottom of the blade is sacrificial in that it will break off rather than bending the stock. The scraping on the hull suggests the rudder has been knocked back and turned. Surprising nobody seemed to notice the impact, but losing that relatively small amount of area would not make a huge difference to steering except in extreme conditions.
Click to expand...

That's right .... the bottom section is sacrificial. But does that mean it breaks off when a fish swims into it? There is no scraping on the hull or stock. Its clean.

Another question .... how much to fix it do you reckon?
 
matsandys said:
Another question .... how much to fix it do you reckon?
Click to expand...

Not an easy repair to do as you need an original rudder to copy from.
I would find from Hanse what the cost and turnaround would be for a new rudder.
It could cost more but save a lot of hassle in the long run.
If the difference was acceptable then buy new.

Is the owner holding you responsible?
 
The slight scrape to the hull at the top of the rudder suggests the rudder was pushed forwards.
Due to the split at the top end the repair will require the whole rudder to be opened up.
The foam core will be soaked.
Has the rudder stock been bent at all? I wouldn't be surpised. Disconnect the rudder stops and cables and rotate 360 degrees or as much as possible.
If the stock is bent you may find the rudder rotates freely at one point but is stiff when rotated either side.
Any damage inside the hull?
If I was estimating the cost I would say £2k to repair. £3k to replace but I really have no idea.
 
Comiserations it's a bummer. It may just be the photographs but there seems to be a substantial foam core and lots of foam filling but GRP does not look very thick. I have looked at one or two damaged rudders in boatyards and I am always surprised how flimsy they are even on biggish boats. I suppose having the bottom sacrificial rather than breaking the boat itself does make sense though!
 
The inner core looks to have a very straight edge at the break, have two bits of foam been butt jointed? This would have put an inherent weakness in the rudder, maybe its a build fault?
 
Talulah said:
Not an easy repair to do as you need an original rudder to copy from.
I would find from Hanse what the cost and turnaround would be for a new rudder.
It could cost more but save a lot of hassle in the long run.
If the difference was acceptable then buy new.

Is the owner holding you responsible?
Click to expand...

The owner is saying the skipper has grounded and graunched the boat. There is nothing to suggest that is true. The skipper is 100% honest anyhow. How can you do that to a rudder, but not to the keel?

I just spoke with the captain and he says the boat rounded up unexpectedly. That is the only possible indication of a problem. But it happenned in fairly light winds miles from shore.

The owner is saying its an impact, but this sounds like a material failure. I have to say that the photos make it look like an impact, but rudders do kind of explode becuase they are under pressure
 
matsandys said:
I'm hoping you can see attached photos. We recently delivered this new boat in the Med. It was a rough trip with various technical glitches, but upon arrival and haul-out we discovered one almighty glitch!

So, my questions:

1. Is it possible to sail a boat 1000nm without realising half the rudder is missing?
2. Is it possible to cause this amount of damage to a rudder without realising?
2. Does the splitting of the upper section suggest lower impact .... or something else? How did it happen?
4. Do we sack the skipper or blame the builders?

I've seen a few threads on Hanse rudder failures. Hoping there are some surveyors out there twiddling their thumbs .....
Click to expand...


Not much metalwork in evidence inside it,is there
 
sailorman said:
Not much metalwork in evidence inside it,is there
Click to expand...
That is a very common form of construction. The metal framework and stock only go part way down. The bottom section is potentially sacrificial so it breaks on impact rather than probably bending the stock and making the rudder unusable. Seems to have worked in this case.
 
Tranona said:
That is a very common form of construction. The metal framework and stock only go part way down. The bottom section is potentially sacrificial so it breaks on impact rather than probably bending the stock and making the rudder unusable. Seems to have worked in this case.
Click to expand...
The earlier ones broke the aluminium stock, so a great improvement
 
If no sign of grounding.

My old Dufour 38 lost its power outside Cherbourg. On investigation no damage to hull or keel, mark on rudder and saildrive unit sheared off. Insurance co accepted that it had hit an unwater (patially submerged) object of some sort and paid out for repair.
 
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