Handicap question

[Shuggy]

We have a CYCA handicap, which is what we require for the occasional race on the west coast of Scotland. We're in the process of obtaining an IRC one, but I've got lots more measuring to do first!

I know I should be asking the CYCA team but I'm short of time before the next race so thought I would see if anyone knew what the outcome might be if I did ask the relevant question.

I think that we've been given a standard CYCA handicap for the class (although we did give all sail measurements). We've just changed spinnaker to a smaller one, and if I remove the big one from the boat, does anyone have a view as to whether we might get a better handicap?

Old spinnaker:
SLU 14.90m
SFT 9.40m
SHW 9.60m
Area ~1200 sq. feet

New spinnaker:
SLU 14.82m
SFT 8.37m
SHW 8.03m
Area 1162 sq. feet

Or is the spinnaker an irrelevance/minor input to the overall CYCA handicap calculation?

Thanks.

 

[awol]

For goodness sake, Hugh, it's Round the Island nae the America's Cup! Just stay vaguely sober in Balamory and dance the next night away at the ceilidh. You'll be stuck in the Carsaig doldrums on the Sunday anyway no matter what your handicap is while the soapdishes ghost off to the finish. An extra .25 minutes won't make a difference.
Anyway for CYCA I have always had the vague suspicion it's who you know rather than the measurements - what other explanation can there be for some boats?

 

[markhomer]

Smaller spinnaker will affect your irc rating positively , cyca handicap you for the boat with standard sails wether you have them or not , this wouldnt allow bigger , but not a worry in your case

 

[awol]

Smaller spinnaker will affect your irc rating positively , cyca handicap you for the boat with standard sails wether you have them or not , this wouldnt allow bigger , but not a worry in your case

You may be right but the CYCA handicap form does ask for spinnaker dimensions along with other data. Certainly admitting to smaller headsails than standard adds fractions of a minute.

 

[drakes drum]

For goodness sake, Hugh, it's Round the Island nae the America's Cup! Just stay vaguely sober in Balamory and dance the next night away at the ceilidh. You'll be stuck in the Carsaig doldrums on the Sunday anyway no matter what your handicap is while the soapdishes ghost off to the finish. An extra .25 minutes won't make a difference.
Anyway for CYCA I have always had the vague suspicion it's who you know rather than the measurements - what other explanation can there be for some boats?

Spoken like a true club racer!

 

[scottie]

Original apples and oranges situation

Little if any correlation between the two systems

 

[Shuggy]

Thanks all - awol and I had a side-PM conversation and he understands my slightly amusing motive, but the follow-up comments are helpful. As I said above, I'm also in the process of getting an IRC handicap so I might remove the huge kite from the boat so I can squeeze a bit more advantage from the smaller one, which perversely I think will be a more powerful sail than the big one due to its reaching capabilities.

 

[markhomer]

You may be right but the CYCA handicap form does ask for spinnaker dimensions along with other data. Certainly admitting to smaller headsails than standard adds fractions of a minute.

I am right trust me , been there , if you reduce from standard size sails you certainly wont get a cyca handicap advantage , neither can you opt for a smaller overlap headsail for a beneficial handicap under cyca as you can for a better rating under irc , cyca does not cater for optimising beyond standard ( other than drastic examples below ), and penalises additional speed factor changes to norm .

Only way you could get an advantage from reducing areas is if your sails were bigger than standard in first place and you had been handicapped so .

Other drastic measures could be made however , physically shortening the mast , chopping the keel off , adding bilge keels , fitting hand brakes ( 3 blade fixed props, fixed props ) , rolling headsail bow thrusters , ., in mast furling main all would / may have effect at descretion of committee , drastic way to optimise for cyca though , not what its about .

 

[markhomer]

Original apples and oranges situation

Little if any correlation between the two systems

Yup you got it in one ,

Remember irc is a rating system, based against measurements put into fixed ( annually ) adjusted rule formula .
Cyca is a handicap system , subject to arbitrary adjustment .

Horses for courses .

 

[flaming]

Thanks all - awol and I had a side-PM conversation and he understands my slightly amusing motive, but the follow-up comments are helpful. As I said above, I'm also in the process of getting an IRC handicap so I might remove the huge kite from the boat so I can squeeze a bit more advantage from the smaller one, which perversely I think will be a more powerful sail than the big one due to its reaching capabilities.

Perceived wisdom with IRC is to get the biggest, most massive kite you can. Under IRC you can still fly your smaller kite when you want to reach - you're allowed to carry up to 3, and you just declare the biggest size.
Certainly this is what we've done, and I wouldn't go back to the smaller kite and the slightly lower handicap.

 

[Shuggy]

Interesting. You might not be in my headspace, where our biggest kite is a 1970s balloon that reaches like a pig, and is also what I think you might call a Code 4. It's very heavy (1.5 oz?) cross-cut with an SHW of 9.6m. Our new one is fully radial and has an SHW of 8.03 in 0.9 oz. Code 2? I think it will be better in almost all conditions, although the big beast is OK in 25 knots true if the skipper's nerves hold out. Although we're a 43 footer, the rig is more akin to a modern 36 footer - we're a Nic 43 so LWL 30 ft with 13 ft of overhang.

Perceived wisdom with IRC is to get the biggest, most massive kite you can. Under IRC you can still fly your smaller kite when you want to reach - you're allowed to carry up to 3, and you just declare the biggest size.
Certainly this is what we've done, and I wouldn't go back to the smaller kite and the slightly lower handicap.

 

[flaming]

Interesting. You might not be in my headspace, where our biggest kite is a 1970s balloon that reaches like a pig, and is also what I think you might call a Code 4. It's very heavy (1.5 oz?) cross-cut with an SHW of 9.6m. Our new one is fully radial and has an SHW of 8.03 in 0.9 oz. Code 2? I think it will be better in almost all conditions, although the big beast is OK in 25 knots true if the skipper's nerves hold out. Although we're a 43 footer, the rig is more akin to a modern 36 footer - we're a Nic 43 so LWL 30 ft with 13 ft of overhang.

The only way you are going to know for sure what the rating hike would be is to run a test very. But my bet would be in the region of 2 points. Maybe only one.
In general kite area is cheap under IRC, especially for non planing boats. I would say that if you can conceive of any situation where given a free choice you would put up the whomper, then I would rate for it.

 

[lw395]

The new kite is only a few % smaller.
I'd guess minimal rating difference.

 

[Shuggy]

Thanks - good advice.

The only way you are going to know for sure what the rating hike would be is to run a test very. But my bet would be in the region of 2 points. Maybe only one.
In general kite area is cheap under IRC, especially for non planing boats. I would say that if you can conceive of any situation where given a free choice you would put up the whomper, then I would rate for it.

 

[markhomer]

As an irc measurer and ambassador i would thoroughly recommend measuring your fore n aft white sails as in all probability they will have shrunk , infact even at new i doubt from my experience they would have been near dimensions as stated standard ,

Check black bands in correct position remeasure p and e .

These things above WILL have a significant effect on your rating , irc allows you to be rated on what you have worth taking the step to check , no need to pay for validated measuring unless you really want too , on an ole nich i doubt it .

Good luck and ive given you my details if you want to give me a bell .

Im based in clyde area