Halon Replacements???

Medskipper

Medskipper

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Don't know about you guys out there, but while I was at Excel I thought it would be a good idea to try and sort out replacement fire extinguishers for the my engine room. My current ones being Halon, the substance that is being banned shortly.

Came across a stand with all types of fire fighting kit and a friendly looking smiling salesman, so I stopped to chat. Coversation went something like this, me, Hi thought I would look at replacements for my engine room extinguishers. him, yes sir how large is your engine room? me, well not sure but I have a Birchwood 37, does that help? him, Oh yes sir you have about, so many sq ft of space (cant remember what he said!) jolly good says I what do I need then? He smiles and points to a red can that looks no bigger than a can of baked beans and says you will need a couple of those! me, jolly good I'll take a couple then says I reaching in my pocket for some loose change! him, right he says they are £500 quid each so that will be, ah, plus vat etc etc. He must have seen my jaw dropping as he clearly began to think that perhaps I was not in the market for a couple or maybe not even one! He then starts to justify to me what a great opportunity it was to have such a wonderful product!

Now call me cynical, but what the hell is going on, I mean once upon a time in the not too distant past a fire appliance for the engine room was less than £50. Now because Halon has been banned, suddenly we are all captive punters and they are all rubbing there hands in glee! My salesman starts to tell me how wonderful the spray pattern is, but they would have to be spraying pure gold dust for me to pay that amount!

Anyone out there got a replacement for Halon at a sensible price?

Barry


<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!
 
What is wrong with Dry Powder???
O.K so it's a bit messy if it goes of, but then again an engine bay fire will be !!!! It is only baking powder so is not corrosive and a good wash down after will soon clean things up, best of all it's no where near as expensive as the new stuff!!!!!!!

Julian

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Agree with sailorman. Who on earth is going to check what type of fire extinguisher you have in your engine bay? Halon works and, by all accounts, none of the proposed replacements work as well. For me, given the choice between a better chance of saving my boat/crew and the dubious notion of saving the planet, I'm going for the former and keeping my halon extinguishers until they're well out of date

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i agree too. In any case, what happens to the halon if you chuck it away? Of course it's more planet-saving if new boats don't have this and have er Co2 (isn't this a bit bad too?) instead. Another alternative would be to fill the bottom 6 inches of the bilge with John Innes compost, plant a dozen small tomato plants and then complain to the boat manufacturer about the dreadful greenhouse effect in the engineroom.



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Quite right too! why is it always good old England that gets clobbered in this way? when no one else gives a toss!

I read somewhere that the Halon only detroys the ozone if its just let off! If its doing its job i.e. putting out a fire, then the dangerous gases are burned off and there is little or no effect to the ozone! I have heard of people letting them off in the back garden because they are now banned! that means the ozone will be damaged just because of the ban. its crazy!

Barry


<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!
 
Re: it always good old England that gets clobbered in this way? when no one else gives a toss!

Halon was banned in Australia many years ago, so your not on your own.

R-12 refrigerant gas was also banned because it 'damages the ozone layer', only problem is the gas that replaces it requires 10% more compression to achieve the same cooling capacity, so the compressor effectively runs 10% longer: needless to say most units are run off mains supply, generated primarily by burning fossil fuels that 'damages the ozone layer'.

Aren't we clever.

Of course I could be wrong................. or the Greenies got us again.

Avagoodweeknd



<hr width=100% size=1> Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif Growing old is unavoidable. However, growing up is still optional.
 
Theres nowt wrong with dry powder for putting out a fire. Problem arises from a minor fire setting it off while the engine is running. Its gets sucked in and buggers your lump. BUT when is a fire on board a minor fire. I'd rather have a buggered lump than a burnt out boat. Oh and live to tell the tale.
The powder can compact with vibration etc. So I take mine out of the holders and give them a shake once every so often.

Where do you draw the point between the cost of the extinguisher and the cost of the boat/crew. Last time i replaced them i used the old ones to see how effective they were on a burning film of petrol. I put a cup ful of petrol in an old oven tray, well she'd burnt the thing anyway, set the extinguisher up in a clamp thing and set light to it. It took 5/6 seconds to operate. Powder went every where. It put the fire out in about 10 seconds. Bearing in mind that this was out in the open and not in an enlosed engine space I was quite impressed. They were only cheapy type from XM yachting but did the job well. I reckon if it was in and enclosed area it would have put the fire out a little quicker.
Not some thing I want to use in anger or seen used again. But at least now I know what the to expect when they go off.
Its good experience to see what all this equipment we carry is like in operation cos I've never used an extinguisher from the boat before, come to that I've never pulled the cord on my life jacket before. The capsules need replacing this year so I might stand in the bath and see what they're like to use in anger.

<hr width=100% size=1>
captain.gif
 
I think this was the stand I visited at LIBS.
Broom 37 - 1 auto unit suggested = £700.

I too shall stay with my current Halon unit, insurance company permitting.

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that's just the problem...you insurance company won't permit.....worst case scenario you have a fire they see lots of halon bottles in your engine room and quietly explain that as halon is, in effect, illegal you are not complying with the terms of your polcy and therefore policy is void leaving you with a rather smelly lump of black, charred plastic to sail around in.

Be assured, even if you have a fire that sinks the boat and it is subsequently raised they'll still check for these things....loss adjusters work for the INSURER and are looking for any way to reduce the insurer's costs.

You could try Kevin at www.yachtbits.co.uk he is sourcing me a FM200 system for my boat currently....

<hr width=100% size=1>mailto: stefan@athito.com
 
IVE JUST REPLACED MY HALONS FOR POWDER AND CONTACTED GJW RE IF AFTHER A FIRE BREAKING OUT HOWEVER SMALL ,AND DAMAGE IS CAUSED TO THE ENGINES BY THE POWDER IT WILL BE COVERED BY THE INSURANCE ANYWAY THEY VERY KINDLY CONFIRMED THIS BY LETTER.

IN TURN IF THE EXSTINGUSERS WENT OF BY ACCIDENT, THEN YOUR NOT COVERED AND THEN ITS UP TO THE BOSS

I LOVE HER REALLY

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When I spoke with GJW Marine they confirmed that their policy required an automatic extinguisher system in the engine room. They do not specify a type.

I then asked about Halon and they said they would pay out in the event of fire, as long as the system was in date.

It seems that even our insurers are aware that Halon is better than the alternatives.





<hr width=100% size=1>We don't want a sports cruiser, totally impractical. Err ok then.

Dave S
 
Ok- May I first admit an interest in this subject as a business I just started supplies halon replacment extinguishers.

A number of valid points are being brought up:-

Does having a Halon extinguisher invalidate your insurancce?
No it does not - as long as you have an effective working automatic system, your insurance will cover you.

Is it illegal to have halon on your boat - yes it is. Up to 150 countries have sigbed up to the ban so if you are found with halon when visiting a foreign port then you could be prosecuted for importing an illegal item.

It is the duty of the loacl council to provide a means of disposing of Halon based products - many councils do not know this though.

Is it as effective as Halon - it requires 50% more gas but given you have that volume it will put out the fire as effectively.

Recent surveys have shown that many boats have empty gas extinguishers and few have empty or audio/visual alarms. Funny that we will not sleep in the hosue without fire/smoke detectors but many will do so on the boat :-)

Anyway - thats my pennyworth!



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul
 
OK I bow to your knowledge! it just always seems to feel that England plays straight whilst many other countries pay lip service!

Barry

<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!
 
David, whilst I do not agree with the ban, surely the very fact that Halon is now banned, would automatically make it out of date. I would be very suspicious, unless I had it in writing from the insurance company.

Also for inland waterways, i.e. river use in the UK, I believe it is also in the brief of BSS inspectors to check on the use of halon in extinguishers. I may be wrong but one of my guys said that when he recently had his BSS certificate renewed, the inspector brought this up regarding his engine bay extinguisher.

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I took an even more pragmatic view, I am keeping my halon -- after all the net greenhouse effect of that going off is going to be a lot less than if the whole boat goes up in flames...

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Thanks for that. It helps.
I purchased a new Halon engine room extinguisher a couple of years ago and begrudge spending £700 to replace it, legal or not.

It seems likely that within a couple of years the price of the alternatives will significantly reduce, as often happens with new products.

Incidentally, my information, from a BSS inspector, is that there is no requirement for a seperate engine room extinguisher, for the BSS.

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"surely the very fact that Halon is now banned, would automatically make it out of date."

I am not a lawyer, I stand to be corrected, but the taking the following examples

1. Halon extinguisher in date - fire on board it it is used to fight it but the boats still sinks - the legal point is if the extingusher was effective within the terms of the contract - if the insurance loss would have occured regardless of halon or non-halon being used then the claim is valid.

2. Extinguisher out date - assuming it still worked well and you could prove it did so then again its date is not material to the claim as it was just as effective in or out of date. Mind you that may be difficult to prove!

3, Extingusiher is empty - bad luck the claim would not be valid if it can reasonably be shown that an effective extingusiher would have jelped prevent it.

A question - how many, whithout chacking, know when the date expires on the extinguishers they have on board now?

Another - how many checked their boat within the last year for empty extinguishers?

My guess is very few - its a hell of a risk if the insurance will not pay out :-)



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul
 
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