Greek Marinas for sale

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BurnitBlue

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According to the Daily Telegraph this morning, the Greek Government may sell their state owned Marinas as part of a drive to raise cash ASAP.

Would this be a good or bad thing I wonder. I thought most state owned Marinas were built with EU money. So how will that work?
 
Did the article say which marinas they were talking about? I believe most of the operating ones to be privately run and owned(?) So are they selling all the abandoned ones? In that case it can't be a good thing for cruisers who currently berth there for free.
 
Many of the EU funded/govt owned marinas are concrete infrastructures which have not found any operators to complete and run the facilities as full service marinas. Often because the lease charges being asked by the local authorities are too high.

Auctioning these off is likely to put realistic values on the sites - with realistic rents - allowing them (at last) to be developed properly. Presently, the spaces are filled by large numbers of non-paying, little used small craft, mostly under 7m LOA. Expect very strong moans as these are evicted from their free moorings; and increased charter activity as more sheltered (paying) yacht berths become available.
 
vyv_cox said:
Did the article say which marinas they were talking about? I believe most of the operating ones to be privately run and owned(?) So are they selling all the abandoned ones? In that case it can't be a good thing for cruisers who currently berth there for free.
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No info in the article. It was mentioned "in passing" while reporting on a meeting of EU officials in early May to find a way to prevent Greece from defaulting on her debt.

Despite denials by the Greek Government it is looking very likely that some re-structering will be necessary, and soon.

I personally don't see a way for Greece to honour the whole debt which costs more to service than they earn. I think it will be OK in Greece, but it will be a blood bath for EU Banks if Greece defaults.
 
A Greek woman once said to me that Greece was a great place to visit on holiday, but a terrible place to live when you had to deal with the bureaucracy! When you add the travel complications out of season, I think it's a great place to sail to, but possibly not a great place to leave your boat!
You're right that the loans to Greece are to save the EU Banks. But restructuring must happen, when the EU banks have worked out how to shield themselves first from the worst of the "haircuts".
How do we know that wealth taxes won't be introduced on smaller foreign yachts eventually?
Or even foreign owned property Jim!
 
Most of the current (proper) marinas are also Greek government owned and then managed on long leases. KG (Kiriacoulis) is the biggest operator and they have about 15 years left on the lease in Gouvia and over 20 in Levkas for example. They in turn have tried selling leases on berths on quite favourable terms, but with little sucess because so far they have not been full so little chance of making money out of sub letting for berth leaseholders.

Expect this is the government trying to encourage new operators to take leases but this is not a good time to invest in creating an operating infrastructre.
 
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tri39 said:
How do we know that wealth taxes won't be introduced on smaller foreign yachts eventually?
Or even foreign owned property Jim!
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Hmmm. Guess why the big house is for sale! Any offers? A snip at £299,000 for 200 sqm, 300m from the big beach . . .

Not allowed to sell before the summer though, family seem to have booked up most of the summer, so I'll be moving into the small house.
 
Marinas for Sale get your marina here hardy used!

There are lots of “marinas” in stunning locations that have been been constructed with EU money and left to decay with no management or maintenance. To my “western” eyes each was an opportunity begging to be exploited – so I asked a Greek friend of mine why they were in such a state. The answer is that its complicated, massively complicated, made worse by complicated self-interested local and national politics – or in other words “there is not enough money in all the world” to grease all the palms that need greasing (and re-greasing) and leave the new “owner” with a viable business. Very very Greek! So even if Greek Central Government puts them up for sale – who in their right mind would buy? The locals have had “the opportunity to buy or operate them” for decades and have deferred, that at least is a good indication of how hard it would be to succeed.
 
And it doesn't stop at marinas. Anyone know how many sewage treatment plants have been built and completed with EU money but never connected up or operated? I know of three but there must be plenty more.

One is at Poros, perhaps the smelliest harbour in Greece. If ever there was a sewage outfall that needed diverting to a treatment plant, this is it. There is a plant just waiting to be used, but the local authority won't raise the small amount of money it will take because they would lose the next election.
 
When working on an EU project for the first time, we were advised "Work with Vikings, not Olive Growers". History has proven this rule. If you want to get things done, then the natives of the Baltic are. Hundred times more efficient than the natives of the Mediterranean. But I prefer the climate :)

Hearing about the bureaucracy/bribery in Greece is such a shame. This is the birthplace of Odysseus and Leonidas.
 
jimbaerselman said:
Navplion, Koroni . . . and Pylos still smells sometimes, though theoretically its working
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When I accused Poros of being the smelliest, I had forgotten Navplion, although it's difficult to imagine how I could!

Last time I was at Ermioni the nice new plant up on the headland looked suspiciously inert, although I don't recall strong smells there.
 
The trouble with all these programs is that it's the bureaucrats that are actually running things in my country.That's why we have so few (almost none) organised marinas compared to Croatia or Turkey if you take in mind coastline length.For example the above mentioned plant in Ermioni was not working for a long time cause they were lacking a relatively small amount of money untill eventually a wealthy resident got fed up and gave them the money to finish the town sewage canals and now it's smell free but the marina that has all the paperwork ready is yet to come as they can't find anybody to lease the permits and build it.WHY? well that's back to local interests but the endresult is the same.The problem around here is always the most of the times ridiculous protests of local people thus stoping them materialise many projects.It's a hell of a country to visit but hell as a country to live.
 
When the EU started pouring money into the Med, mainly a power building idea, I noticed the sudden imergence of people to 'manage' the funds. If you have a good idea for a business oportunity, 'They' would massage your idea, for a fat fee. No other option.Fee up front.

A friend in the Portuguese system made a comment about about the 10% that was 'lost'. "You are joking...It is the 10% that gets to the needy, the rest goes to the off shore accounts.
So are we surprised about the current situation?
 
Interesting idea - the problems are many.

One, most of the unleased marinas are too small to be economic for anyone to run as a commercial operation - I cite Katakolon, Pilos, Monemvassia.

Two, as already pointed out Greek bureaucracy is enormous, obstructionist and greedy. It doesn't help that the department that issues marina licences is currently not operational, because the head resigned just before Christmas and hasn't yet been replaced.

Third, As the proprietors of Mesologgi have found out, there's a lot more to running a marina then appears at first sight and in most of the places the infrastructure is totally inadequate - roads, phone-lines, sewage, water.

Leave apart the critical comments about the Greek national character - I personally find them delightful, amusing, warm-hearted and more interested in today than tomorrow.

At no time was there any chance of the Greek economy shouldering their debt - the only outlook is for a re-structuring - which means a lot of lenders will lose their money (look out especially for German banks who have consistently, successfully fudged their capital inadequacy). Apart from Greek banks, it will hit French and UK banks.

The final effect is that overblown state payroll will be forcibly cut and the "average" Greek will suffer - not those international Greeks with foreign bank accounts.

The true stuff of tragedy and all those who get a thrill of schadenfreud seeing it all happening would do well to consider that they might be next in line - because the domino effect will be dramatic.
 
Hi Charles,

Economically viable is exactly what these small marinas could be/should be. Take the example of the small tavernas with a couple of pallets and a few lazylines as a “yacht stop”. Without the primitive mooring facility the taverna would be economically compromised. The EU is a socialist organisation and would I am sure have realised that by improving on the pallets and piles solution and providing the marina infrastructure many families could be supported. Pilos, Trazonia, Itea et al with a little bit of effort and yes considerable management expertise would benefit but as you and others have correctly pointed out the political will to realise the benefits and succeed is sadly lacking. It is a social travesty that the EU has pumped so much money into “facilitating infrastructure” only to have it squandered and wasted by a structure of myopic greedy politicians and a culture that supports them. I think hell will freeze over long before things change much in Greece, unfortunately, and until that happens they will always have a hand out for handouts
 
Marsupial said:
Hi Charles,

Economically viable is exactly what these small marinas could be/should be. Take the example of the small tavernas with a couple of pallets and a few lazylines as a “yacht stop”. Without the primitive mooring facility the taverna would be economically compromised. The EU is a socialist organisation and would I am sure have realised that by improving on the pallets and piles solution and providing the marina infrastructure many families could be supported. Pilos, Trazonia, Itea et al with a little bit of effort and yes considerable management expertise would benefit but as you and others have correctly pointed out the political will to realise the benefits and succeed is sadly lacking. It is a social travesty that the EU has pumped so much money into “facilitating infrastructure” only to have it squandered and wasted by a structure of myopic greedy politicians and a culture that supports them. I think hell will freeze over long before things change much in Greece, unfortunately, and until that happens they will always have a hand out for handouts
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They could only be considered viable if one looks at the total potential take - that's why so many French marinas are municipally owned.

The locals in the local municipalities see no reason why their rates should go towards providing "luxurious" stopovers for foreigners with more money than sense.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Kissiparissa. There's an area which could accommodate enough boats, on pontoons to be truly self-financing. I will lay 1000:1, that the place will fill up with locals, who pay nothing and no-one will take any action.
The capital costs of bringing a marina up to working are enormous and no sane financier would chance his arm on such a pie-in-the-water scheme.
Just look at the cost of a marina berth in the UK (and you can be sure Marina Developments wouldn't look at any of the Greek marinas).
Break-even size for a marina, in the industry, is considered to be 320-330 berths, if it's built. Most won't consider a marina of less than 1000 berths as a greenfield start.
 
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