Great new product from nasa

[steve28]

nasa have just produced an a.i.s.

(automatic identification system)

marine traffic control type system !

price £254

This is from practical boat owner

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Good for nasa, although checking their site it has not yet appeared, here is me thinking what a great use for their as yet unused what's new tag. doh!

I presume this unit feeds to a laptop or does it just give a list of targets on a screen?

I know I have recently slated their log skin fitting, with justification!, but for once this is a British company that appears to watch for a market and pounce with well priced diy units that are on the whole reliable and well built. Yes we can all find faults, but hey, who else is selling this apparatus and how much do they charge?.

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<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>

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[Oldhand]

Look forward to seeing it with great interest. I know ICS are working on one too.

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[graham]

Does the unit give you any information about other vessels or does it simply transmit your details for use by VTS or search and rescue?



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[jonjo]

Re: Excuse me while I gloat

About three months ago when most people on these forums were saying “AIS-what” I predicted this technology would get much cheaper.

I called it poor man's radar and then argued that it will frequently be more useful than radar.

Having looked at a picture of the NASA product I would say that that NASA are up to their usual tricks of going a bit too budget oriented with their AIS product. I still think £400 will be the sweet spot for these devices when combined with a handheld GPS chart plotter.

Note that the NASA product will become available later this year.

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[Oldhand]

Re: Excuse me while I gloat

Why "when combined with a handeld GPS chartplotter"?

To present A.I.S. information received in a graphical format will surely require a larger display and any A.I.S. receiver must surely have its own text data display.

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[jonjo]

Re: Excuse me while I gloat

> To present A.I.S. information received in a graphical format will
> surely require a larger display

By "hand held GPS chart plotter" I was thinking about the latest designs that seem to be based on the pocket pc hardware spec with a screen of about 380 x 240 pixels.

I played with one at the LIB and concluded useful navigation could be done at this resolution. The same model got top marks in a YM group review last month.

I think AIS vectors could be overlaid on such a plotter. The text info could be programmed to pop up on request.

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[Novice]

Re: Excuse me while I gloat

I would question how useful AIS is going to be for leisure craft, unless units are available which will transmit information as well as receive and display. How will the system be a 'poor mans radar' when the information displayed will be very incomplete, and totally dependent on vessels being fitted with the system, and actually having it turned on?

In poor visibility, it will not show other small craft, buoys or other features which radar has a better chance of picking up.

Jon

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[jonjo]

Re: AIS v. Radar

> How will the system be a 'poor mans radar'

How many non-sea school yachts crossing the channel each year are fitted with radar, < 20% I assume? This is the market for AIS.

I suspect a lot of people will knock AIS over the next few years by way of justifying their personal investment in a radar set.

> unless units are available which will transmit information as well as
> receive and display.

Obviously radar does not transmit a position either. Yes small boat AIS position broadcasting will be a big improvement but I think authorities are debating how to introduce small boat AIS because of concerns about cell overload and display clutter.

So for the next couple of years the question becomes how useful will receive-only AIS be compared to radar?

A GPS chart plotter does a much better job of showing up buoys and other fix pilotage features.

All big ships must have AIS by the end of the year and I cannot see a motivation for these sets to be switched off in pirate free sea areas.

The US are already mandating AIS at 65 LOA feet and above.

Maybe I am missing something about inshore radar usage, but I have been mid channel in both fog and clear weather wishing I had a device that would paint a picture of collision vectors and tell me which way a ship was turning. I would not hesitate to spend £300 on a device that could do this but I would seriously question the benefit of a £1500 radar for a short handed crew in real life and death close crossing incidents. The notion of extracting reliable collision vectors off a radar image is technically very difficult and will never match the accuracy AIS plotted vectors.

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[AvanLoon]

The reactions given so far gives me the idea that most readers don't know what AIS is for a thing. To get an impression, go to http://ais.qps.nl/InfluxPortal/DesktopDefault.aspx
register in (free) and see how easily you can see where all the commercial ships are on the North sea and the surrounding harbours. A very nice site for the home front of seafarers.
Mark as well that you can read a lot of cummunication details about a ship.
Hope this helps. (and now I go as fast as I can to the NASA site)
Kind regards

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[petery]

A product in search of a leisure application ?

My understanding was that AIS was designed to identify radar targets by appending text to an echo on a radar display. This means that you still get an indication of a target/problem even if the ship is without a transponder or it has it switched off.

Using it with just a chart plotter - where you get no indication of a target/vessel without a transponder - must give you the ultimate false sense of security.

Do I really need to know that the coaster 1 mile ahead is carrying iron ore to Dunkerque

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[SteveGorst]

wow! this site is great fun. It's amazing to be able to track all the ships like this,one of my mates is a captain of one of these ships and I've just spooked him by quizing him about his speed and heading!! I can see that the new NASA product will be on my wish list if this is the sort of information it will give.

Steve

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://"www.nwcc.info">North Wales Cruising Club</A>

 

[jonjo]

Re: A product in search of a leisure application ?

> My understanding was that AIS was designed to identify radar
> targets by appending text to an echo

I think you have been reading too many glossy brochures from radar manufacturers.

> Using it with just a chart plotter - where you get no indication of a target/vessel
> without a transponder - must give you the ultimate false sense of security

Compared to what? Please take a view on AIS from the point of view of the 80% of small boat skippers who do not have radar onboard.

> Do I really need to know that the coaster 1 mile ahead is carrying
> iron ore to Dunkerque

Well it could make passage making more interesting.

The key point is you are putting your boat at risk if you believe that the collision prediction function of small yacht radar adds to your safety. It might reduce anxiety where there is no risk of collision in the first place but in life threatening close encounters it is a waste of time.

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[petery]

Re: A product in search of a leisure application ?

'fraid you haven't convinced me.

In the tone of your reply - 'It seems like you've been reading too many glossy brochures produced by manufacturers of AIS receivers'.

I understood AIS was designed to get and display the information that is currently requested by the stations managing, for example, traffic separation zones and not as an aid to leisure boating.

.. and your last line about radar just reducing anxiety and precious little else must surely apply to using AIS as a close-quarters collision avoidance device --- in spades! A post some months ago indicated that many vessels in the approaches to Felixstowe have AIS turned off - but I realise that may change.

Surely we have to rely on the basic collision avoidance rules in limited visibility and use our eyes, ears, radar and AIS together - and - if we have them - in that order.

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[jonjo]

Re: A product in search of a leisure application ?

If ship to ship collision avoidance was not an objective of AIS why does the standard include transmission of rudder angle?

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[petery]

Re: A product in search of a leisure application ?

I don't have that depth of knowledge... but I'm sure Dover or Cap Griz Nez surveillance stations would find rudder angle useful in monitoring the TSS.

My original point was that I thought that the impetus for developing AIS came from shore stations monitoring harbour approaches and TSS who wanted to supplement their radar displays with ship details - like Air Traffic Control. If a ship is not using AIS and there is a radar echo they can call up the vessel and get his details - ie it was designed to supplement - not replace - radar.

Are you involved in the design, manufacture or sale of AIS devices?

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[francis39]

I’ve seen one of these under test near Dover! It was probably a prototype, in the same package as the 16-line NAVTEX Pro. It was connected to a handheld GPS to provide the receiver position. But what it does is show some AIS messages as text as they come in. The messages they display seem to fall into 2 types: either having MMSI, and latitude and longitude, or having the MMSI and the vessel name. Other data such as the Gross Tonnage, destination port, rudder angle(!), etc., which AIS-equipped ships send out were, mercifully, not shown apparently.

But in “radar” mode, the thing really came into its own. A radar-like screen shows the tracks of all the vessels nearby. You could select display ranges of 1 nm, 2nm, nm, 8nm, 16nm, and 32nm, and only the vessels in range are plotted. The plots also show a track of each vessel’s recent positions as well as its present position. The advantage of that is that the track shows each vessel’s velocity relative to the receiver. Any track pointing directly towards the centre of the display is on a collision course!

When the “radar” mode was on, it displayed the GPS data for its own position. You could also interrogate each of the targets on-screen and show their MMSI, name (if it was available), its latitude and longitude, its Course over Ground, and its Speed over Ground.

It looked the business, but they didn’t tell me when it’d be available


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