GPS, AIS, Fog would you set off?

[Uricanejack]

I haven't bothered to comment on the AIS threads.

For those of us with Jobs or Business’s to run.
At the end of the week on Sunday. Due back for Monday morning.

My question is about fog. for those who recommend AIS.

Would you set of in FOG without your GPS and AIS? Assume a busy area encountering possibly encountering all sorts of other vessels.

For those who would I guess the answer would be the same. But for those who wouldn't be happy setting off without GPS and or AIS

Would you set of in FOG with your GPS and AIS.?

Why? Will it change how you act, your speed, you sail, how you react to other vessels you can't see.

For the record with no need to be anywhere I would not set of in FOG. But if I had to be somewhere. I would set of in FOG without GPS, AIS or RADAR.

So I suppose GPS and AIS would just make it a bit easier to do what I was going to do anyway.
Would it change how I do it? I would no where I am. I would know where some other vessels were but not all of them.

 

[snooks]

With the gift of experience I won't go out in fog without radar. No ifs, no buts, no radar, no go.

AIS doesn't tell you where boats without AIS are, and there are enough of those around to make a hole in my boat.

I dislike fog, I never relax when we're in it. I'd rather be on land when there's fog. Nothing is so important that we have to risk going out with a blindfold on.

 

[Poignard]

With the gift of experience I won't go out in fog without radar. No ifs, no buts, no radar, no go.

AIS doesn't tell you were boats without AIS are, and there are enough of those around to make a hole in my boat.

I dislike fog, I never relax when we're in it. I'd rather be on land when there's fog. Nothing is so important that we have to risk going out with a blindfold on.

Agreed 100%.

I have never felt so helpless as crossing the SW going shipping lane south of the Isle of Wight a couple of years ago when thick fog rolled in and obscured everything. We had decided to go for it because the Old Guvnor had a medical appointment next day and I stupidly didn't attach enough importance to a warning of mist patches. The 'mist patch' took two hours to get through!

Never again will I ignore a forecast.

 

[mainsail1]

Some years ago I came back across the Channel in thick fog. We heard a fog horn from a big ship but had no idea where it was. A minute or so later we passed through its wake which was still churning from its propellor.
I decided there and then never to go out if fog was forecast without radar and never leave harbour if I could see fog.

 

[LadyInBed]

I have set off from Cherbourg once with just DECCA but the forecast was that it was local coastal fog, and sure enough it cleared a couple of miles out, I then had a good passage.

 

[James_Calvert]

I have set off from Cherbourg once with just DECCA but the forecast was that it was local coastal fog, and sure enough it cleared a couple of miles out, I then had a good passage.

Had similar from Cherbourg, but without Decca. Found the East exit on a compass bearing, funny thing was that a number of others followed me out, presumably because they thought I had Decca (which wasn't common then).

However my worst passage in fog was on a late afternoon/night passage from Salcombe to Trebeurden. It rolled in about an hour or so into the passage. I didn't want to turn back - I guess I was hoping it was local and would clear, but it didn't. And anyway, turning back would have involved crossing the big ship route past Start Point again.

We had GPS then, so no serious navigational worries, but I would have been very glad of AIS (not invented then); also for us radar wasn't practical then, too expensive. A very worrying night, but we came to no harm.

I would probably do the same if caught out today - but would hope to avoid the situation with the more reliable forecasts we have these days.

Still don't have radar, but am considering AIS on a new VHF. Don't have a chartplotter.

 

[pvb]

Radar everytime. I don't have AIS, but I do have radar. One's a toy; one's essential.

 

[GHA]

Not without all 3.

Gps is a given. AIS does lots of the hard work without you having to fiddle around with EBL/VRM's so you can pay attention to the rest of the radar hopefully picking up everything else.

Or do the smart thing and phone in sick

 

[johnalison]

A few years ago we caught a weather window and set off from Harwich to Den Helder with poor vis as a possibility on the forecast. In the event, we had fog from 9pm to midnight but we're able to motor on with radar quite confidently. I may well not have set out without radar, and would have been stuck in harbour for another week. Although AIS is brilliant, it doesn't give the same confidence in fog but would still be of inestimable value to anyone caught out in poor visibility.

Not all fog forms a complete blanket and there have been several occasions before I had radar when the fog in harbour cleared as soon as I left harbour.

 

[pathfinderstu]

Only with a good radar and the knowledge how to use it unless you trust in luck.!

 

[Robin]

Way back pre GPs and Pre Decca we used to do frequent weekenders for duty free ( You could stillget the proper stuff then too) to Cherbourg from Poole. We crossed often in fog, not usually intentionally but the forecast fog patches often stretched from one side to t'other. we had RDF and there was a beacon on the West Entrance to Cherbourg and an Aero beacon on Alderny, plus one of the full navigational ones on Cap Del'Hague, somewhere along the way there was a VHF direction finding 'count the beeps syatem on VHF Ch88 and very good too. in those days the ships still sounded fog horns and we could hear them seemingly altering to pass clear of us, we did have a Firdell Blipper Radar reflector permanently aloft. I remember we got annoyed if after our predicted CTS calculations we had to make even the smallest alterations in order to go straight in to Cherbourg via the chosen entrance. We bought one of the first Decca sets after they went on sale to recreational users as opposed to being previously only rented to commercials and bought it in St Peter Port, Guernsey. When we left for home from Guernsey with our newly fitted Decca it was in company with another Poole boat also with newly installed Decca. We went up the Little Russel in thick fog with a long line of followers behind each of us and somewhere off Alderney saw another Brit boat headed south appearing out of the gloom, my friend in The other Decca boat was hailed and asked by the southbound one if the fog cleared farther on, he said 'no, but would you like an accurate position fix?' and (smugly) added 'we have Decca'. We bought our very first radar on sale in St Peter Port too one of the old style, a Mars Vigil with a hooded non daylight viewable screen which was why it was on sale cheap, and after a lot of practice in clear conditions it became a very valuable aid. When that radar went tits up after a very thick fog trip from Dartmouth to Camaret via Chenal Du Four we replaced it in France immediately with a new Furuno with a daylight viewable screen, albeit still a CRT screen not LED. That set was brilliant and could be seen easily from out in the cockpit or from my sea bunk below if I opened an eye to look whilst SWMBO was on watch up top. OUR next boat came with a basic Raymarine SL70(?) set that wasn't in the same league as the Furuno but we lived with it for over ten years and it did the job.

So to answer the question would we go outin thick fog, well we did, just like we set out sometimes in really bad weather. In later years we became more cautious, but at least were confident in our abilities should fog or bad weather drop by unexpectedly. Nowadays we have a brand new all networked Garmin system with HD Radar, collision avoidance help with MARPA all on a a 10 inch colour cockpit display that really works in sunlight, as well as an integrated AIS Transponder transmitting as well as receiving. The radar display can be overlayed over the chart if wanted and AIS targets are displayed on both the chart display and the radar screen. Should we wish targets shown can be called via their MMSI directly on the integrated DSC VHF which has a cockpit mounted RAM mic with full DSC controls incorporated . Notwithstanding having all the toys now and knowing how to use them from years of previous practice with more basic gear, I am told emphatically that 'we don't set out knowingly into poor conditions any more' and I wouldn't dare argue with SWMBO on that , not and expect to maintain any +ve nookie points any road. I think it is most important whatever the toys, to know how to use them 'from first principles' as in knowing how to do collision avoidance by radar plotting, not just relying on a simple MARPA button push and trusting the software etc to do the job. These are still AIDS to , not substitutes for proper watchkeeping or navigation. [/lLECTURE MODE]

 

[grumpy_o_g]

With the gift of experience I won't go out in fog without radar. No ifs, no buts, no radar, no go.

AIS doesn't tell you were boats without AIS are, and there are enough of those around to make a hole in my boat.

I dislike fog, I never relax when we're in it. I'd rather be on land when there's fog. Nothing is so important that we have to risk going out with a blindfold on.

+1

 

[snooks]

I have set off from Cherbourg once with just DECCA but the forecast was that it was local coastal fog, and sure enough it cleared a couple of miles out, I then had a good passage.

We set out from Bray (before we had radar...actually that should be before we fitted radar...we had it, in the boot of my car....anyway...) we set off at 5:30, forecast said "fog patches" sure enough a few miles out we hit a fog patch that lasted all the way across, we only saw land when we were in the needles channel. Having Condor Express approach from astern at full chat was not something I'd like to repeat. The most horrible crossing I've had. Quite what good blowing a fog horn does I never did work out. The most pointless bit of kit.

Far better to be able to see others than cross your fingers and hope you're seen.

 

[Robin]

We set out from Bray (before we had radar...actually that should be before we fitted radar...we had it, in the boot of my car....anyway...) we set off at 5:30, forecast said "fog patches" sure enough a few miles out we hit a fog patch that lasted all the way across, we only saw land when we were in the needles channel. Having Condor Express approach from astern at full chat was not something I'd like to repeat. The most horrible crossing I've had. Quite what good blowing a fog horn does I never did work out. The most pointless bit of kit.

Far better to be able to see others than cross your fingers and hope you're seen.

We have a foghorn 'cos USCG rules say we must or get fined, They have the right to ask you to terminate your voyage if they stop you , no doubt going back in the fog to do so,

There is a difference between forecast fog and actual, would you set out in clear vis with fog patches forecast?? We once waited several days with friends in Dartmouth, delaying a crossing to France because of thick fog forecast Our friends were on the start of a sabbatical and intended carrying on south when we turned north again and returned home to work . We had GPS and radar, our friends had a satellite navigator of the non-GPS stoneage kind but also had a recently installed radar. We eventually left without them in our company, in crystal clear visibility but with fog patches still in the forecast (after a cold front had passed through our sea area) but our friends refused to depart. We had unbelievable visibility all the way across , sighting lights on land from 30 miles out IIRC, so clear that flashing radio mast lights from miles inland were confusing to us visually as they didn't appear on the charts despite looking to be just a mile or two away . Our friends meanwhile returned home to Poole in company with another boat and then immediately sold the boat to buy a motor caravan and went off to Spain in that instead. The skipper BTW had just passed his full Yachtmaster Offshore theory and practical a couple of weeks beforehand too..

 

[sarabande]

there seem to be two cases for sailing in fog:-

one is optional, the other is not.

If you in harbour, and there is fog or forecast of fog, then it is down your your risk appetite, and what equipment (radar, Seeme, AIS, etc) you have and what passage you are planning across TSSs, round headlands, and so on. In the end it is your decision as skipper to venture forth (or not) which will have to stand the test of an inquiry if something goes wrong.

However, you may well be on passage when fog is forecast, or suddenly arrives. This is slightly different.

If you are not constrained by searoom, fatigue, proximity of the end of a trip, or a deadline, then you have a the choice of staying out of trouble, perhaps heaving to or even sailing on another course out of the fog or to less densely poulated areas.

It is equally understandable that you may not have the option of backing out of fog, and at that point you have to start taking risk seriously. Are you for instance heading into port on a course which is used by commercial vessels equipped with tight schedules and multiple radar ? Do you trust them to have a watchful team on the bridge ?

How long will it take you to transit the bank of fog before you either hit land or, if you are confident in your nav, reach a buoy for more precise pilotage ?

Have you got VHF comms with the harbour ? Can they warn you of adjacent vessels ? Can you hear well ? Is your foghorn working, or likely to run out of gas ? Are you under engine, or will it start with 100% certainty if you need to get the hell out of the way ? Are you in an area where military forces are operating in stealth mode (even in fog) ? Is your radar tuned to max for the conditions ? Are you sure that you have enough battery power to sustain your risk-mitigating equipment for 1 hour ? 5 hours ?

There are so many questions, and such a variety of answers. In the end, it is down to you as the skipper to answer to your crew and their relatives for the safety of the boat, and as such the badge of trust is pinned firmly on your chest.

 

[Robin]

There are nevertheless times that an experienced skipper can judge that predicted fog or fog patches may well be local, just coastal or will soon burn off with the rising sun, likewise in some areas fog can appear and even disappear with the turn of the tide as when cold water from the depths is forced to the surface to meet warm moist air, or conversely that uprising of cold waters ceases and the breeze/sun can disperse the mist up top. If you always take the view of 'never leave harbour with fog, actual or predicted', you could be in for some long waits, ruined cruise plans and excuses needed for the boss at work. For every occasion we sailed in unexpected fogs, there were those where initial fogs, especially early morning fog cleared when just outside the harbour and we enjoyed a fog free trip whilst others retired complaining to the club bar.. If tools like GPS, AIS and radar are available, and most importantly with the ability and confidence to use said tools, then this can influence a decision as to stay or go. Likewise the pilotage problems, as often the stressful bit is getting out and clear of harbour or of entering the destination one the other end In the old days pre-radar pre-Decca or GPS we several times crossed the channel in thick fog where the hardest bit was actually going buoy to buoy down the Swash and inside the harbour to find our own mooring in our home port of Poole. We once completed a cross Channel club race/rally that ended in thick fog off Cherbourg peninsular, We found our way in OK via RDF and the continuous beacon on the West Entrance, but two club members spent an unhappy couple of hours circling CH1 buoy, (marking the pilotage pickup station area I believe) until the fog cleared enough for them to go that last couple of miles to the entrance and find their way to the inner harbour and marina. of course later with Decca or GPS waypoints loaded and tested in clear vis for the pilotage bits it was far less difficult and later still with an electronic plotter, easier still.

I'm not suggesting everyone sets out regardless but that sometimes, with care and proper preparation of routes/wpts, and with radar, AIS etc it is still possible to make a passage without serious incident, albeit with some apprehension and trepidation. The key I guess is in knowing your own abilities and limitations and having confidence in the tools you have and in using them, then, if in doubt, don't go out!

 

[Davegriff]

As a young man, long before I could afford radar (and the weight then would probably have sunk the boat anyway!) I have set out in fog with no more than charts and a compass and a watch. Admittedly only ever in home waters in daylight and not in particularly busy waters, but I don't remember being particularly concerned about doing it, and the tranquility usually accompanied with summer fog can be beautiful. In quiet waters with modern tools I would certainly do it again now, although strangely, probably because I have become used to modern tools like GPS etc, I'd probably think more of it (for whatever good that would do).

Can't see how it would be any more dangerous now than then. The overwelming majority of us survived such trips, and we nearly all managed with little more than a compass 30 or so years ago. A doddle today.

 

[charles_reed]

I'd probably not set out in fog, even with radar, unless it was a life-or-death situation. IMHO AIS is a toy which will give you a small part of the fogbound picture - needless to say I've had radar for 23 years and am not about to urgently invest in AIS, though I do have one dedicated chartplotter and two laptops with OpenCPN (and 2 GPS receivers).

When I was young my friend and I with out two sons set out from Cherbourg bound for Alderney when we ran into fog - using the very clear aerobeacon @ Blaye we carried on, soon developing a "trail" of about 5 boats. One, despairing of our 3 knot progress went past us to port. 10' later there was a loud clang and they re-appeared out of the gloom, having bent the beacon just off Bibette. That, from memory, was 1980. I believe it's still bent.

 

[Robin]

I'd probably not set out in fog, even with radar, unless it was a life-or-death situation. IMHO AIS is a toy which will give you a small part of the fogbound picture - needless to say I've had radar for 23 years and am not about to urgently invest in AIS, though I do have one dedicated chartplotter and two laptops with OpenCPN (and 2 GPS receivers).

When I was young my friend and I with out two sons set out from Cherbourg bound for Alderney when we ran into fog - using the very clear aerobeacon @ Blaye we carried on, soon developing a "trail" of about 5 boats. One, despairing of our 3 knot progress went past us to port. 10' later there was a loud clang and they re-appeared out of the gloom, having bent the beacon just off Bibette. That, from memory, was 1980. I believe it's still bent.

We once went into Alderney in thick fog on that aero beacon, walked into town up the hill and saw boats (actually only saw the tops of their masts, coming up the Alderney Race, the fog was less than mast height deep, so maybe with a lookout posted at the mast top it would be clear? This was classic cold waters rising from the depths in a fast running tide meeting warm moist air at the surface type fog, the kind that thickens up rather than blows away in a breeze as that simply brings in yet more moist air to condense out. We were steering on our final approach to Braye that morning after an overnighter from Poole in clear vis most of the way by keeping the aero beacon on a constant bearing, until there was suddenly a big noise from the Quenard(?) lighthouse fog signal as it started up ( so suggesting the fog was just arriving) rather too close ahead as according to our log and DR we still had some 5 miles to go.:ambivalence: When we finally left Braye we went to Cherbourg instead of St Peter Port as planned as the forecasts were warning of some real nasties on the way . We eventually sat out F11 gales for several days in the old CHBG marina, where the main pontoons were curving significantly in the gusts, before we eventually made our run for home when it dropped to 'only' a gusty F6. QE11 a was anchored with engines aiding her maintain position under the lee of the IOW at the time and no ferries crossed the Channel for IIRC 5 days and even then needed tugs to help them on/off their berths. Sadly this was the gales that sank 'Adfin's Rival in the Western Approaches, claiming one life I believe when their lifreraft broke up after abandoning from a sinking ship. Very sad. On the other hand, a Frenchman in a Dufour Arpege arrived (understandably exhausted and needing help into a berth) after making a single handed crossing from Chichester.

 

[pmagowan]

I have radar and AIS and have set off in dense fog from Canna. The weather was dead calm and I would not have have been confident without those aids but there was virtually no traffic and the main risk was getting tied up in a pot buoy. The radar is the most important thing in fog as the dead calm conditions it normally appears in allows you to pick up even minute objects like buoys. The AIS gives the added security that big scary boats are unlikely to flatten you without you at least having advanced warning. It is quite nice to be able to correlate the information from 2 or more systems to double check your calculations. I like seeing the radar overlap on the chart plotter with a nice picture of an AIS target following the appropriate dot on the screen. It is all quite reassuring but, of course, it is probably wiser not to venture out in fog at all but then if we were completely risk adverse we would get all our sailing excitement from internet forums!