Good Sailing Performance?

[Amp1ng]

Hi All,
“Good Sailing Performance….” - What does this term really mean?
After 3 seasons ownership I have parted company with a very nice Westerly Fulmar Twin Keel and I’m now looking for her replacement. The Fulmar was sold due to cost versus the amount of time spent aboard especially since the wife decided she has persevered enough and boating really isn’t for her. So I’m looking for something that will tie up less money to a pontoon that I can use mainly for single handed day sailing plus occasional longer south coast passage/cross channel trips.
I’ve been mulling over the idea of a Contessa 26 but I’m not sure how to gauge the performance in terms of passage times that can be expected from this or a similar design long keel vessel other than looking at the RYA Cruiser handicap numbers. When comparing handicaps against boats that I have some practical experience of the Co26 doesn't look like its going to impress that much but I’m sure I’ve heard great things about these boats from Round The Island race especially in a blow, indeed the results for 2011 and 12 bear this out. I’m not interested in racing but I like passages at 6knts through the water, pointing roughly in the direction I want to go with a comfortable motion, so when I read past reviews of the Co26 and they talk about good sailing performance what do they really mean? Are they referring to good straight line speed and point ability or are these being combined with other parameters associated with sailing in livelier conditions e.g. directional stability, balanced helm, stiffness, ability to maintain way in a heavy seas etc. in order to achieve this acclaim overall? Any thoughts on this or experiences of the Co26 on passage would be much appreciated

Thanks

 

[rob2]

You're right, the term means nothing unless qualified by a comprehensive description of the various qualities of the boat!

It's a few years since I sailed fairly regularly with a friend on his Co26. The performance is generally similar to a Folkboat, but somewhat drier thanks to the higher freeboard. Don't expect to average 6 knots, though. I have a photo of the log at 10 knots, but that was surfing through the North Channel past the Shingles Bank in half a gale on the quarter. Probably nearer the mark to passage plan on something between 4 - 5 knots, but the motion is nice and the long keel and balanced rig will allow you to leave the helm to take a leak or put the kettle on whilst beating. It's a question of scale, any boat with a shorter waterline length than you're used to will be slower, but won't neccesarily feel like it. To equal that sort of speed with a smaller boat would require a semi-planing hull and blades that can stall if the speed drops too low and would be too much to sail single0handed unless you're Superman!

There are a number of boats which can offer some of the benefits of the Co26 with greater speed. Basically, they are from the transitional period when full long keels were replaced by fins, though of a broader plan than the current ones, but with a good vee section to the hull so it maintains longitudinal stability and doesn't slam. My own choice is the Varne 27/850 (and later Weston 8500). More accomodation and headroom than the Contessa and i passage plan on 5 knots.

Rob.

 

[johnalison]

One thing we discovered when racing many years ago was that boats pretty well all go at the same speed. Larger ones go a bit faster and modern ones will skim off downwind a bit better but that's about all. For cruising purposes, a tub with a long waterline will match or outperform a beautifully shaped racing boat with a short waterline. The Co26 is OK but there plenty of others like it such as the Invicta which might be more comfortable. The Tomahawk is more modern with a similar performance.

 

[dunedin]

One thing we discovered when racing many years ago was that boats pretty well all go at the same speed.

sorry, but I wouldn't agree with that. It may be broadly right in about 15-20 knots wind and downwind. But often very much not the case below 10 knots and/or upwind - when sail area, weight and wetted surface make a big difference.
We have regularly made speed to windward of 2x or 3x other similar sized boats in light winds - due to a mix of actual boat speed and better pointing angles. Generally results in their engines going on, but we prefer sailing.

A Fulmar (particularly a fin keel one) was one of the best performance cruisers of its era, safe and fun to sail. The OP may be disappointed if goes to something less spritely.

 

[30boat]

sorry, but I wouldn't agree with that. It may be broadly right in about 15-20 knots wind and downwind. But often very much not the case below 10 knots and/or upwind - when sail area, weight and wetted surface make a big difference.
We have regularly made speed to windward of 2x or 3x other similar sized boats in light winds - due to a mix of actual boat speed and better pointing angles. Generally results in their engines going on, but we prefer sailing.

A Fulmar (particularly a fin keel one) was one of the best performance cruisers of its era, safe and fun to sail. The OP may be disappointed if goes to something less spritely.

I still get very satisfying performance from my hull nº one Fulmar,particularly in a blow.

 

[Poignard]

Hi All,
I’m not interested in racing but I like passages at 6knts through the water, pointing roughly in the direction I want to go with a comfortable motion, so when I read past reviews of the Co26 and they talk about good sailing performance what do they really mean?

Thanks

Well they don't mean 6 knots in a boat like that.

If you fancy a long-keeled yachts why not consider a Twister? A boat you can stand up in that doesn't look like a caravan. Good sea boat. Steers herself on the wind. Good class association. Also French harbourmasters seem to like them - I have been waved to the front of queues and given berths in supposedly full marinas!

 

[johnalison]

sorry, but I wouldn't agree with that. It may be broadly right in about 15-20 knots wind and downwind. But often very much not the case below 10 knots and/or upwind - when sail area, weight and wetted surface make a big difference.
We have regularly made speed to windward of 2x or 3x other similar sized boats in light winds - due to a mix of actual boat speed and better pointing angles. Generally results in their engines going on, but we prefer sailing.

A Fulmar (particularly a fin keel one) was one of the best performance cruisers of its era, safe and fun to sail. The OP may be disappointed if goes to something less spritely.

That may be so for the conditions you mention but in terms of passage making, not many people are going to beat for say 80 miles at a VMG of 2kn, even if this is twice the speed of other boats. Generally, a fast boat might do to passage in 12 hours and a slower boat about three or four hours longer.

 

[Kelpie]

I think 'good sailing performance' is very much a relative term.
Oh, and if the OP is interested in a folk boat derivative, I happen to have a Vega for sale

 

[lpdsn]

Everybody's boat has good sailing performance; you would be unpopular if you suggested otherwise.

You could get a better idea if you looked at IRC handicaps. Performance based handicaps tend to reflect the quality of crew in particular individual boats or particular designs, rather than the boat themselves.

The RTIR, though, is a complete red herring. The faster boats end up having to fight tide up the Eastern Solent and lose out. The way to win the race is to go slow enough to catch the tides all the way around, whilst having a handicap that says you should be sailing even slower. The Contessa 26 just happens to hit that sweet spot in the right hands.

I would also have expected you to have more scope to reduce costs with a bilge keeler than with a smaller boat that needs a deep water mooring or a marina berth.

 

[William_H]

Funny there is mention inn the posts that a Cole 26 has a long keel. We have what are known as Cole 26 here in Perth but are all fin keel style. Yes they go OK comparatively well in a blow but left behind ina race in lighter winds. I have another friend who has a Cole 32 and yet another who bought as lovely Cole 23 fro 2.5K squid. (boats seem to be really cheap at the moent around here. AFAIK around here all Coles are fin keel except the 23 which can be fin or lift keel. So is there any similarity between Colle in UK and Cole in antibedes. olewill

 

[onesea]

Lots of boats to think about all depends on what you want.
As others have said
a) Long keels / heavy boats often more sticky in lighter airs, yet more comfortable in heavy weather.
b) Fin keels / light displacement more sprightly in light airs, less comfortable in heavy weather.
Short handed once the wind cranks up performance matters less and endurance matters more.

There are lots of compromises in the middle.

I have an old 3/4 tonner and she is still light and nippy but after 6-8 hours single handed, slogging to windward in F5-6 I am tired slowing down and dreaming of a Marina. Given a Contessa, I would be catching up fast and thinking about putting the roast in the oven for my next meal.
Yet in 10 knots of wind with No 3 up and Double reef in main I still sail straight passed a Contessa 32.

Extreme examples but the compromise you wish to make is probably in the middle somewhere.

I would look honestly at the sailing your going to do and what will derive you the most pleasure. My compromise is I knew 90% of my sailing would be shorter trips/ days and I do not like listening to the engine.

Also when it comes to cost tied to pontoon is it length? draft? Drying? that is your biggest restriction?
You can buy allot of boat for very little money if you shop wise, and you can buy a little boat that will cost money if you are foolish.

 

[yoda]

Albin express, quick, small, can be set up for single handed and good resale. Unless you are into long distance singlehanded I expect you will pick the lower wind ranges for sailing on your own so a boat that picks up speed in light air will be more rewarding.

To save a lot of money use a swinging mooring, it isn't that bad!

Yoda

 

[Kelpie]

Funny there is mention inn the posts that a Cole 26 has a long keel. We have what are known as Cole 26 here in Perth but are all fin keel style. Yes they go OK comparatively well in a blow but left behind ina race in lighter winds. I have another friend who has a Cole 32 and yet another who bought as lovely Cole 23 fro 2.5K squid. (boats seem to be really cheap at the moent around here. AFAIK around here all Coles are fin keel except the 23 which can be fin or lift keel. So is there any similarity between Colle in UK and Cole in antibedes. olewill

Are you reading 'Co26' and interpreting that as Cole 26? Over here it means Contessa 26.

 

[Iliade]

Sad to say, but the only way you are going to see passages averaging 6kt on a regular basis with only 26' of boat will be in a multihull or a foiler!

if you want to step down to a monohull that small you will have to join those of us slouching along at more like a 4 kt average.

 

[Amp1ng]

Thanks all for your comments, very usefull and put a lot in perspective for me. Regarding cost reduction, for me its not the type of mooring its more the amount of money tied up in the value of the boat. I'd rather have something 10K or less tied to a pontoon or swinging around a buoy as opposed to 30K. I'm lucky in that at my local yard we have mud so deep that even a deep fin can take the ground in certain places, so things are relatively cheap for moorings.

What I've taken from this thread is that I'll need to adjust my expectations for passage planning in any vessel around the size I'm looking for that's manageable single handed. Perhaps I ought to look at other aspects of the sailing that I enjoy and cmake a choice on that basis. Most of the time I'll be day sailing from one place anyway.

Thanks again.

 

[TimBennet]

Trading down from a Fulmar to a Contessa 26 will be a HUGE change. You find it tiny both in the cockpit and below. You really must try one to see if you enjoy it being that 'tight'.

As to sailing ability - well they are not bad for a 26ft, long keel boat with a small sail area. All those things are considered very favourably by the handicap rules, so if you have a 'factory' prepared boat with no expense spared sails and fittings and have an Olympic sailor helm, in the right conditions it has an enviable record in the RTIR on handicap. Still took a long time to get round (compared to say the Sonatas which are a similar era, 4 foot shorter but sail 'well').

Now I'm not saying that a Sonata and Contessa 26 are comparable boats, but each in their way represents a small boat that sails well. But pick the wrong one for the sailing you do and you would find each, at best, rather 'frustrating'.

But if you are looking for a ruffty tuffty little boat for about £10k, things like a Trintella 29 would give you a little more room / comfort, and a Hustler 30 would give you a lot more speed (5kts+ seen regularly) and comfort and arguably more 'seaworthiness' as size is one of the biggest contributors to a boat's ability to cope in the rough stuff.

In Onesea's analogy above, it's mentioned that it's possible to cook a roast dinner going to windward in a Contessa 26. Well leaving aside whether this is actually possible, it is however worth pointing out that the sailors in the faster boat don't have to cook a roast dinner on boat as they have already arrived and gone down the pub.

If you have access to suitable moorings there's not a lot of financial savings to be made between a heavy 26 footer and 30 footer. Your running costs will depend mainly on how well you buy in the first place. At that price point there are some real gems out there if you look long and hard enough (and are prepared to travel to less frequented corners of the country). There are also some real dogs that are fit only for the scrap heap. At the £10k end of the market, the hull effectively comes 'free'. Just make sure you get at least £10k worth of value in the engine, sails, fittings and equipment, etc.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Sad to say, but the only way you are going to see passages averaging 6kt on a regular basis with only 26' of boat will be in a multihull or a foiler!

if you want to step down to a monohull that small you will have to join those of us slouching along at more like a 4 kt average.

+1

 

[Twister_Ken]

Most of the time I'll be day sailing from one place anyway.

Then you don't really need accommodation beyond somewhere to make a cup of tea and take a leak - if that. Hawk 20 with - or without – a cabin? Sun 20? Sonata? GK24?

 

[Seajet]

Rather than out and out speed, consider the boats' handling; no point going around supersonic with your hair on fire, if you arrive knackered after fighting the helm.

As Twister Ken mentions you probably don't need a boat much longer than 20'; how about A Europa or other Oliver Lee designs ?!

Or if determined on a bigger boat, how about an Impala.

 

[estarzinger]

Some years ago my wife looked at cruising passage speed . . . The results are in this article (http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/200mile.pdf). There is a formula in there that proves to provide a pretty accurate prediction of average cruising passage speed. (And before anyone mentions it, yes we know about the sqr in the hull speed formula but it did not provide the best fit to the actual data).

The passages studied were along the common cruising routes, so not very much upwind work. For me, when I say "good sailing performance" I am usually meaning a combination of upwind and light air. Those are the two situations where the differences between boats is mist pronounced. Many cruising boats suck at both and many cruising sailors will simply fire up the engine in those two situations.

It's hard to beat a deep keel for upwind, and a tall mast for light air.