Godwins candidates

[zoidberg]

I've been receiving the 'MAIB Safety Digests - Lessons From Marine Accident Reports' every quarter for many years, and am dismayed by the regular recurrence of the same lethal malpractices year after year after year.

Here's an example "The deckhand was wearing an auto-inflate lifejacket which inflated when he fell overboard. Unfortunately, the waistband was very loose and the crotch strap had not been used, which meant that when he became unconscious it rode up around his face and he drowned...."

I've long thought it should be illegal to sell a LSJ without a crotch strap, but to go to the trouble of donning one then not bothering to secure it to one's body with the necessary - but provided - c'strap is just idiocy.

 

[Wansworth]

The only time I saw LJ donned in seriousness was the Cabo Verde crew,sitting in the mess deck ,I assured them that there was no need.For e 10 in the Thames estuary…….as long as the skipper kept it stearn on to the sea

 

[DFL1010]

One company I worked for made it a disciplinary issue to not use crotch straps. These were commercial LJ (275N or so?) due to weight of PPE and tools and whatnot.

 

[Just_sayin']

I’m reasonably sure that you don’t know what Godwin’s Law is

 

[KevinV]

I’m reasonably sure that you don’t know what Godwin’s Law is

I was wondering about that - I presumed the OP meant jack boots, not crotch straps, should be obligatory

As for the OP, I couldn't agree more, it's as stupid (and pointless) as motorcyclists wearing a helmet but not doing it up - as seen twice recently on telly.

 

[davidej]

He probably means a Darwin award

I’m reasonably sure that you don’t know what Godwin’s Law is

 

[Black Sheep]

I’m reasonably sure that you don’t know what Godwin’s Law is

Sure, he wrote "Godwin" instead of "Darwin". That's not a big deal - what are you, some sort of forum nazi?

 

[Sandy]

I’m reasonably sure that you don’t know what Godwin’s Law is

Perhaps a slight spelling error. I make them all the time on here.

This might help Goodwin Sands.

 

[harvey38]

As for the OP, I couldn't agree more, it's as stupid (and pointless) as motorcyclists wearing a helmet but not doing it up - as seen twice recently on telly.

The yoofs of today on their scooters/mopeds around here don't bother with helmets straps any many no visor either.

I did mention it to one lad at a fuel station and was met with a volley of abuse but as he was in trakky bottoms, trainers and no gloves, I doubt there was much intelligence inside the helmet!

 

[Poecheng]

Sure, he wrote "Godwin" instead of "Darwin". That's not a big deal - what are you, some sort of forum nazi?

Top post

 

[Daydream believer]

I must admit that I have a habit of putting my Musto jacket over my non inflated LJ if it suddenly gets colder or a bit damp. I normally only zip the bottom 2 inches of jacket up so that the LJ has room to inflate. But if it did it would not ride up - At least I would not expect it to. Instead it would probably crush my ribs & kill me first if the Musto zip held fast.

As for wearing the LJ properly. I cannot help wondering what happens to the courting tackle after a short while. Does one want to be rescued, knowing that such appendages have been crushed beyond all useful purpose

 

[Sandy]

I must admit that I have a habit of putting my Musto jacket over my non inflated LJ if it suddenly gets colder or a bit damp. I normally only zip the bottom 2 inches of jacket up so that the LJ has room to inflate. But if it did it would not ride up - At least I would not expect it to. Instead it would probably crush my ribs & kill me first if the Musto zip held fast.

As for wearing the LJ properly. I cannot help wondering what happens to the courting tackle after a short while. Does one want to be rescued, knowing that such appendages have been crushed beyond all useful purpose

Having done the RYA Survival Course and bobbed about in a nice warm swimming pool in an inflated LJ I can report that nothing happens to the courting tackle as your body is held almost horizontally, face up and the strap is nowhere near it.

As for wearing your LJ under your foul weather gear ...

 

[Daydream believer]

Having done the RYA Survival Course and bobbed about in a nice warm swimming pool in an inflated LJ I can report that nothing happens to the courting tackle as your body is held almost horizontally, face up and the strap is nowhere near it.

As for wearing your LJ under your foul weather gear ...

Well, I do not know where your courting tackle is positioned; but those straps run between my legs. If they are not actually doing anything, like pulling an errant LJ down from trying to go up over ones head, then why does one need them? I would have thought that the straps would definitely want to give a little nip, just out of spite if nothing else.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Well, I do not know where your courting tackle is positioned; but those straps run between my legs. If they are not actually doing anything, like pulling an errant LJ down from trying to go up over ones head, then why does one need them? I would have thought that the straps would definitely want to give a little nip, just out of spite if nothing else.

Most of your weight is supported by the water and generally you would naturally float on the surface, unless you swallowed breathed in water in which case you would sink. Provided you having not filled with water, when trying to keep you near upright with head above water, the straps need to provide enough lift to sustain the weight of your head. Not very great judging from some comments on here.

A typical LJ gives 175 to 275 lift which I read as 17.5 to 27.5 kg and thats to give surplus lift if pounded by waves, or forced under

 

[zoidberg]

The RYA Survival Course equips one for 'bobbing about in a nice warm swimming pool'.

Having been on the receiving end of multiple Aircrew Sea Survival Courses in real cold salt water - one in February somewhere south of Plymouth and another in even colder water near Cape Town, but with sharks - and qualifying as a Combat Survival Instructor for my sins, I can tell this assembled congregation that when the seawater is THAT cold, any pressure from LSJ crotch straps is no significance whatever!

Then there is the very real need, on real high seas, for an effective spray hood..... not something much needed in a 'nice warm RYA swimming pool'.

 

[Sandy]

As for wearing the LJ properly. I cannot help wondering what happens to the courting tackle after a short while. Does one want to be rescued, knowing that such appendages have been crushed beyond all useful purpose

For appendages being crushed beyond all useful purpose you really need to wear the Whillans Sit Harness for several hours on a very small ledge on a bitter cold night on Ben Nevis as 'Fred' who is leading works out the crux on Point 5 gully well after his headlamp, powered by four D cell batteries, has given up shedding any light despite being stuffed inside his string vest.

Mountaineers of a certain age will understand.

 

[benjenbav]

I must admit that I have a habit of putting my Musto jacket over my non inflated LJ if it suddenly gets colder or a bit damp. I normally only zip the bottom 2 inches of jacket up so that the LJ has room to inflate. But if it did it would not ride up - At least I would not expect it to. Instead it would probably crush my ribs & kill me first if the Musto zip held fast.

As for wearing the LJ properly. I cannot help wondering what happens to the courting tackle after a short while. Does one want to be rescued, knowing that such appendages have been crushed beyond all useful purpose

Jochen Rindt - habitually wore racing harness with crotch strap undone; died when crashed, slid under; throat slit.

You pays your money and makes your choices.

 

[ctva]

For appendages being crushed beyond all useful purpose you really need to wear the Whillans Sit Harness for several hours on a very small ledge on a bitter cold night on Ben Nevis as 'Fred' who is leading works out the crux on Point 5 gully well after his headlamp, powered by four D cell batteries, has given up shedding any light despite being stuffed inside his string vest.

Mountaineers of a certain age will understand.
View attachment 166880

Brings a tear to my eye just remembering the joys of the above mentioned torture device, worn once and replaced witrh a very nice Mk7.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... but to go to the trouble of donning one then not bothering to secure it to one's body with the necessary - but provided - c'strap is just idiocy.

It is not idiocy. Risk normalisation and complacency is a normal reaction by human beings when faced with repetitive, secondary tasks. The people who died, likely were doing their job well and just did not perceive that the risk was relevant to them, likely because they did not feel threatened by drowning.

It is a a very difficult nut to crack. There is a whole discipline within safety, psychological safety, dedicated to understanding this and trying to implement intervention skills that leverage adhering to safe practises. For example, if the crew of the fishing boat was lead by a skipper and senior deck hand, who always wore lifejackets correctly donned and intervened when crew members did not done a life jacket correctly, there likely would not be an issue. As commercial fishermen they will have been trained how to done a lifejacket properly and why the crotch start needed to be fitted correctly.

Blaming the individual is usually wrong because if an incident is thoroughly analysed, so many more factors are identified that failed to correct the behaviour, or allowed wrong behaviour to flourish. On another post, someone mentioned "just culture", which has long demonstrated that outright negligence is rare, when "Just culture" is correctly applied.

 

[KeelsonGraham]

Most of your weight is supported by the water and generally you would naturally float on the surface, unless you swallowed breathed in water in which case you would sink. Provided you having not filled with water, when trying to keep you near upright with head above water, the straps need to provide enough lift to sustain the weight of your head. Not very great judging from some comments on here.

A typical LJ gives 175 to 275 lift which I read as 17.5 to 27.5 kg and thats to give surplus lift if pounded by waves, or forced under

Sorry, but you have this wrong. The issue is that the LJ is far more bouyant than you are. If you don’t fasten the crotch straps it’ll ride up over your head, leaving you in acute danger of drowning within the confined space of the collar area. At best, you can see nothing and can’t manoeuvre, even slightly. With the crotch straps attached, and properly adjusted, the LJ doesn’t ride up. And thus your head is held out of the water by the rear part of the stole. Some of your weight is taken by the crotch strap. The end result is that you’re held semi-horizontally. Because you are half way to horizontal, you feel the pressure of the crotch straps on your bum rather than on your crown jewels.

That’s my experience, having been thrown into the sea with one on more times than I can count!