Glass houses and stone throwing?

[Thistle]

I've read with interest the recent threads on keeping clear of divers. There is criticism of dive boats for improper use of the A flag / rigid replica and some folk have managed to squeeze in a swipe at fishermen with dayshapes which go up in the builder's yard and come down in the breaker's.

Makes me wonder how many of the critics (and those who agree with them) always use a motoring cone or anchor ball or radar reflector when required ...

Why do we - and I include myself here - feel that we can pick and choose the rules we obey and those we ignore? And why do we feel that we can criticise others who obey / disobey different sets of rules?

 

[DaveS]

Human nature?

It's not just boats, either. Think of driving: most people scrupulously obey some of the rules while blatantly ignoring others - and get irate at those who choose differently!

 

[Noddy]

What Fun!

 

[Pye_End]

Point taken, but if you you see someone without a cone who may be motorsailing you assume that the boat is under sail and use that set of rules.

Much of the time it is easy to destinguish who is or isn't motorsailing (eg main plus power) anyway.

Personally, if I am motorsailing without a cone and I need to do something about another sailing boat, then I make early course changes and act like a motorboat - so there is no doubt in the other person's mind. Occasionally you do it thinking 'I should have had a cone up back there as it would have avoided confusion', but very rarely.

Diving the information / consequesces etc are really pretty different, and I would argue both situations should be looked at primarily in a practical way.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read with interest the recent threads on keeping clear of divers. There is criticism of dive boats for improper use of the A flag / rigid replica and some folk have managed to squeeze in a swipe at fishermen with dayshapes which go up in the builder's yard and come down in the breaker's.

Makes me wonder how many of the critics (and those who agree with them) always use a motoring cone or anchor ball or radar reflector when required ...

Why do we - and I include myself here - feel that we can pick and choose the rules we obey and those we ignore? And why do we feel that we can criticise others who obey / disobey different sets of rules?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Thistle
It was an observation about the ways people behave rather than a swipe at anyone. Well OK maybe it could be taken as a counterswipe to the original comment about how people ignored the divers' support boat. I don't even own a motoring cone or anchor ball but they are on my list.

 

[fireball]

I would consider some regs as more vital than others....

eg - Motoring cone - only acts to advise other vessels that you should be complying with the Colregs as a motor driven vessel instead of a sailing vessel

Anchor Ball - again, only advises the other vessel that you are at anchor - which is usually plainly obvious if you are not moving in a recognised anchorage ...

Fishermens Dayshaps - only advises the other vessel that you are engaged in fishing.

Diver Down "Flag" - says "I've got someone in the water - if you come too close you could hit them" .... to me that is far more important as I cannot see under the water from my cockpit, I don't know where the divers are, I don't want to hit one!

The 3 are not life threatening ... one is....

 

[brianrunyard]

[ QUOTE ]
I would consider some regs as more vital than others......

[/ QUOTE ]
So we can all choose which ones we think are important/vital and ignore the rest (Anarchy rules).
Does this also apply on the road? "Well officer, I condidered driving at 2mph while drunk was ok, as it wasn't life threatening".

 

[fireball]

I'd prefer to be run over by a 2mph drunk driver than a 70mph maniac in the same street.

I didn't say you could ignore some - just that some are more vital ...

Technically if you use your engine for 5 minutes whilst sailing you should display a motoring cone - so - take this senario - a number of years ago I went across to Bembridge from Chichester in a 22'er in a F7 NW - because it was a pain to reef the main we went over under Genoa only... when we got to the big boat anchorage outside Bembridge it got decidedly choppy and we made less progress - so I whacked the engine on.... it would not have been too safe for me to go and put up a motoring cone, and I was prepared to take evasive action from any other vessel in the vicinity as per normal power driven vessel rules. So yes, I was breaking the rules ....

Now, take a Diver down situation - you're sat in a quiet out of the way spot and your divers disappear into the deep ... you don't display your A triangle cos no-one else is there ... then along come a number of boats .... do you a) Wave your hands frantically b) wish you had displayed the correct dayshapes as your divers could now be in mortal danger ....

 

[Talbot]

[ QUOTE ]
I make early course changes and act like a motorboat

[/ QUOTE ]

Isnt that an oxymoron? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[gjgm]

collregs arent the sole demain of leisure craft, of course. The risk to all and sundry of a 6m rib at anchor isnt the same as the possible uncertainty over the status a several thousand tonne vessel, but we all live by the same rules.
Seems to me that on the question of motorsailing, its rather convenient for someone doing so to retain all his rights of way(as such) by not declaring himself as a motor vessel. And nearly all the time, perhaps it dosnt make much difference, as in all likeliehood, he isnt doing 20/30+ knots, and most will continue to treat the vessel as sailing.
On the question of diving, I dont think its fair to stick some possibly manky half invisible diving flag out and then imagine fast boats can spot that; I'd much rather there was some gesticulating or active helmsmanship to ensure that I am aware. Surely no one wishes to have an accident with a diver, and courteous and active behaviour on both sides should be a welcome addition to the required flag.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Thistle
I think the important thing here is that the REAL dangers to divers needs airing. I for one never considered this a problem, probably because I havn't noticed the dive flag - for the many reasons stated. I will be a lot more aware of this from now on.

This is one of the great uses of the internet.

 

[dovekie]

I would second this. This whole thread has alerted/reminded me to be aware of possible dive boats - adequate flag or not. I'm sure there are aspects of my sailing that are as scrupulous as they should be, and I don't begrudge the reminder just because other people aren't perfect either.

 

[mitchc]

Thanks guys, that was the reason i posted....
Lets all enjoy the water on or below it! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[stephenmartin]

As a diver and a boater...I know the realities of turning the water red and ruining somenes day...maybe even their life and others....

If an A flag is displayed its really only common sense to keep well clear and at low speed...whether you believe them or not

Motoring yachts as has been mentioned are really quite obvious...but Divers below isn't....

It all becomes glaringly obvious in court....currently its about a 5 year stretch for manslaughter.....and ignorance of the rules is no defence

 

[pappaecho]

On at ransit from Portsmouth to Hamble on Saturday, close hauled on a port tack we came across a race of Swans ex Cowes whose committee boat was anchored in Stokes Bay. It had every flag under the sun on it, and also an escorting black rib. The rib saw us and got out of the way. The committee boat did not move because it was anchored, did not have a black ball up, and the anchor was invisible to us - all we could see was the stern.
Persons on board were all wearing navy blazers with brass buttons and cravats. and the reason I know this is because we passed very close by. Should have dropped off our rubbish as we passed by.

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
all we could see was the stern.

[/ QUOTE ]
Over taking boat keep clear ... even if you are undersail and they are under engine ... simple!

 

[richardabeattie]

If I were a potential victim (a diver coming up for air) I would hoist the right sign.

Having hoisted it I would proceed under the assumption that the only person to see it was a passing Martian.

If I were a passing Martian I would plead the Fifth.

 

[Noddy]

Phew! I'm glad thats settled!