Giving survey to broker/seller

[maej]

Is it normal practice to give a copy of the surveyors report to the broker/seller?

The broker has asked if I would let him have a copy to show the seller because the survey has highlighted advanced osmosis needing a big discount.

At first this sounds like a reasonable request to me as a nieve first time buyer, but it's been suggested I should ask them to pay half of the costs for it. What is the normal practice?

 

[jonic]

Is it normal practice to give a copy of the surveyors report to the broker/seller?

The broker has asked if I would let him have a copy to show the seller because the survey has highlighted advanced osmosis needing a big discount.

At first this sounds like a reasonable request to me as a nieve first time buyer, but it's been suggested I should ask them to pay half of the costs for it. What is the normal practice?

Perfectly reasonable and usually in the contract anyway. It's how your discount will be arrived at in conjunction with a quote from a specialist.

 

[sarabande]

but, BUT, make sure it goes with a warning that it is for use in relation to the purchase of xxx yacht, and not to be passed on or copied in any form to anyone except the owner - and the original copy to be returned to you.

I suspect the surveyor may have an issue with someone distributing copies of his confidential report to you as the sole client.

 

[CreakyDecks]

Only my opinion, but I would regard the survey as money well spent and walk away. If you are a first time buyer the last thing you want is a boat that needs a load of expensive work to make it useable. It's not like there aren't many boats for sale!

 

[PCUK]

For reasons that are not relevant I was given a buyers surveys by the buyer. It was absolute rubbish that I was able to prove by simply examining the problem properly. If you are claiming big problems then the seller and broker will definitely want to see the survey as surveyors are far from infallible and many are little short of incompetent!

 

[Jim@sea]

I would suggest that if you are actually going to buy the boat you include the cost of the survey in whatever you knock off the price to buy the boat. (that is if you want the headache of osmosis) There are loads of boats out there without it.
Otherwise as you are going to walk away without doing a deal I would ask for 50% of the survey fee. Personally I believe that the boat broker in his professional capacity should have known that the boat had osmosis and should not allow people like yourself to spend good money on a survey.
PS in 1982 I had a survey done on a 1973 boat and I then bought it. Then I noticed osmosis. So I had another survey done, It turned out that the second surveyor had previously done a survey on the boat 3 years before (1979) and noticed osmosis. So the hull had been painted. so 3 years later the osmosis was coming back but not noticed by surveyor No 1 prior to my purchase.
BUT it was there and my pre purchase surveyor did not spot it. Anyway in those days osmosis treatment was in its infancy and I sanded the blisters down (on the waterline) brushed it with 2 pack in another colour as a "Waterline Go Faster Stripe and 3 years later it had not returned. But today that boat will be 38 years old and be sold in excess of £100,000. Would I buy an old boat with Osmosis again, No. But this boat was only 7 years old when the osmosis warranted the hull being painted.

 

[jwilson]

Is it normal practice to give a copy of the surveyors report to the broker/seller?

The broker has asked if I would let him have a copy to show the seller because the survey has highlighted advanced osmosis needing a big discount.

At first this sounds like a reasonable request to me as a nieve first time buyer, but it's been suggested I should ask them to pay half of the costs for it. What is the normal practice?

There are two options:
1) You are going to reject the boat entirely, in which case you need to provide enough details (not necessarily the full survey) to demonstrate significant material defects, in order to have your deposit returned without question.

2) You want to proceed, but get the price renegotiated. In this case you have to persuade the seller that there is genuine justification for this, and usually giving a copy of the full survey is the best way. The surveyors front page will almost certainly already have a disclaimer of some sort that this is only for you, but you should let the surveyor know that you want to pass on a copy, and clear it with him.

A common compromise is to knock about half the cost of an ‘osmosis treatment’ for that size of boat off the price. It is unfair to expect the owner to take the full price off, as if the gelcoat is replaced the boat is more saleable, and hence more valuable, as it then has a known low moisture content and no blisters.

If you cannot reach a compromise agreement then again your deposit should be returned.

We did have a case earlier this year when a buyer's survey recommended an immediate full osmosis treatment. As broker I disagreed, as I had looked at this hull carefully, and got low moisture readings myself from the hull. My words were that it would be vandalism to put a gelplane on this hull.

The owner (who had maintained the boat immaculately) also disagreed, and at my suggestion commissioned a hull survey from a very well known, highly qualified and respected surveyor. He came up with a very different result - no osmosis - no need to do anything for years. The buyer accepted the second survey, and the sale went through.

If the broker had seen the boat out of the water, and there was evidence of "advanced osmosis", he should have told you in advance. Sometimes however, particularly where a boat has been unused for a while and left in the water, the first you know of it is on a lift out for survey. As a broker I hate it when that happens. I am not a surveyor, but I do work at being able to predict what a surveyor will say.

 

[maej]

The boat was afloat on a swinging mooring so I believe my survey was the first time the broker would have seen the bottom. I'm no expert judge of character but I believe the broker was unaware, though I have reservations about whether the seller was aware prior to my investment in the survey and lift.

The surveyor I used was someone who is highly recommended on this forum and considered to be quite an expert in osmosis (which wasn't actually the reason I chose him).

I have no idea what is considered to be advanced osmosis, but there are loads of blisters visible even to me through the antifoul ranging from 5p to 50p size all over the hull below the waterline and there are even more craters that look like old blisters with the tops removed. Moisture reading of 25 on his black box and ph of 2 for the vinegar smelling liquid and he pointed out the wicking along the strands.

While the boat was lifted I got the broker to come over and see it for himself, and whilst he says it's not as serious as the surveyor says (reality will be somewhere in between) he has acknowledged that something needs to be done. The broker and I also got the local yard to estimate for the work while she was lifted, the estimate being 8 -10k + VAT. I am also seeking estimates from Osmotech and Desty Marine.

Apart from the osmosis she is a very nice boat that I really like which is why I haven't run away screaming already. I think coming to an agreement might be a challenge, but I want to try.

Initially it didn't occur to me to expect them to pay anything toward the survey, I just thought it standard to give it to them, but given my reservations about the sellers honesty and some comments i'v had I am feeling a little cheated. If we come to an agreement on price then no hard feelings, but if not then I begrudge them benefitting from my expense by gaining a detailed survey report.

Unfortunately my budget means I'm looking at 80's boats which means there is a strong chance of osmosis to some extent, it's just this one has a bit too much to ignore.

 

[Boo2]

Is it normal practice to give a copy of the surveyors report to the broker/seller?

The broker has asked if I would let him have a copy to show the seller because the survey has highlighted advanced osmosis needing a big discount.

I did when I bought my boat and highlighted all the items I was accepting without asking for a discount in green and all the items I needed rectification for in a yellow. I think this strategy helped because there were quite a few niggles I was accepting and it put me in a reasonable light wrt the biggies.

Hth,

Boo2

 

[BlueChip]

Only my opinion, but I would regard the survey as money well spent and walk away. If you are a first time buyer the last thing you want is a boat that needs a load of expensive work to make it useable. It's not like there aren't many boats for sale!

There is a lot to be said for buying a boat with Osmosis.
Providing you pay an appropriate price and have it treated professionally and get a warranty, then Osmosis is one worry you wont have in the near future, plus you'll get a bottom thats smooth with no horrible antifoul build up.
You could buy a boat today without Osmosis and then have it develop in two years time at which point the costs of treatment will all be down to you.

 

[Spyro]

You don't say the cost of the boat or size but on a boat from the 80s it may not be worth spending 8-10k plus vat on it.
There is also the time involved as well to effect repairs.
Take a 10k boat and spend another 10k on it doesn't make it a 20k boat.
You may want to knock 10k off the asking price and sail it away and forget about the problem. Personally I think I would walk away.

 

[maej]

You don't say the cost of the boat or size but on a boat from the 80s it may not be worth spending 8-10k plus vat on it.
There is also the time involved as well to effect repairs.
Take a 10k boat and spend another 10k on it doesn't make it a 20k boat.
You may want to knock 10k off the asking price and sail it away and forget about the problem. Personally I think I would walk away.

Shes a Sadler 34 - asking price was 25k

 

[northwind]

I nearly brought a boat last year, but when it was hauled out, it was covered with blisters. Neither the broker or the owner knew, as it hadn't been out of the water for 18months.

I walked away, as the seller was determined that he didn't want to negotiate. And as others have said, there were plenty of other boats to choose from.

I passed a copy of the survey to the broker as evidence of why I was rejecting it.

What is more interesting is the boat is still for sale, but has been pulled out, and left on the side for a year, and I presume the blisters have been filled, as it was copper coated, but is now anti-fouled.

Its on with another broker, and he is obvioulsy trying to hide the fact it has the pox. The question is, would he liable in the future?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Is it normal practice to give a copy of the surveyors report to the broker/seller?

The broker has asked if I would let him have a copy to show the seller because the survey has highlighted advanced osmosis needing a big discount.

At first this sounds like a reasonable request to me as a nieve first time buyer, but it's been suggested I should ask them to pay half of the costs for it. What is the normal practice?

entirely up to you - there is no normal practice.

 

[PetiteFleur]

I bought my (1979)boat with a considerable discount because an earlier survey said it had rampant Osmosis. My offer was based on this and conditional on my own (two) surveys. One was by a well respected local surveyor and the second was from my neighbour who had just passed boat surveyor exams and did it very cheap and for practice. When compared the surveys were almost identical and they both said it did not have osmosis, just a little amount of 'wicking'. I did not show my survey to the broker and I bought it effectively on the premise it did have osmosis. The only main difference between the two surveys was that my neighbours had lots of high quality photos.
I would not be put off a boat having osmosis - just make sure you put in a realistic offer to take into account the osmosis.

 

[Kwik Decision]

Shes a Sadler 34 - asking price was 25k

Given that an imaculate 34 has sold recently for around £40k, and there is an older one on with Mike Lucas for £33.9k at the moment, the asking price is already rather low.

What's the condition of the interior / rigging / sails / engine / instruments etc like? If the only significant problem is the osmosis, and you can get say £5k off the asking price, I would say you are doing very well. You can then chose to get the osmosis work done this winter, or simply ignore it, slop on a coat of antifouling and go sailing.

 

[Judders]

£40k for a Sadler 34? It must have come with dancing girls and a full time crew. Bonkers money in this climate.

Whether the asking price is cheap is irrelevant, if it wsnt disclosed that the boat has osmosis and they knew it did then you have been diddled into getting the lift and the survey in the hope that nobdoy would notice, and that does not put the industry in a very good light at all.

 

[keesvugts]

Osmosis

I have a Sadler 34 that had "osmosis", it can be reasonably remedied but this is not cheap, takes a lot of time and work if you do it yourself.

Be careful with so called osmosis treatments, an incredible amount of nonsense is being spoken and a lot of money is wasted on ineffective treatments.

I also don't suggest that you simply paint over it and ignore it if you intend to keep the boat for a reasonalbe period of time, as the damage is progressive.

PM if you want to discuss details.

With respect to the seller knowing whether the boat had osmosis, it is unlikely that the seller did not know this if the boat was anti fouled in the last two years. "Osmosis does not happen overnight. Your surveyor should be able to be very clear about the amount of damage / rework required as "osmosis" is very easy to inspect on a Salder due to the use of clear gel coat on the under water part of the hull.

The Salder 34 is a nice boat and I'm very pleased with mine but £25k is far too much in today's climate for a Salder with significant osmosis.

Regards,
Kees

 

[Crabman]

The broker does not need to see the report ,all the broker has to do is ring the surveyor. Ask the surveyor for at least two firms that can carry out the work on the osmosis. When quoted ask the firms if that includes yard fees for the yacht . Then its time to thrash out a price that you are both happy with ,if not walk. As discussed there are yachts out there and good ones . Good luck.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The broker does not need to see the report ,all the broker has to do is ring the surveyor.

The surveyor would be quite within his rights to politely tell the broker to go away. The surveyor's contract is with the potential purchaser and it would be reasonable for the surveyor to seek permission from the purchaser before discussing the report with the broker or any other party.

Notwithstanding this it would be entirely reasonable for the broker to ask to see the survey and have a copy - with the normal caveats that it is not for any third party (usually written in the reports opening comments anyway). Some purchasers can be rather disingenuous when it comes to negotiating and for the broker to have a copy of the report might help the whole negotiation along. After all, the broker wants to broker a deal and a copy of the report might help him persuade the seller that a re-negotiation of the price is necessary. You can get intransigent people on all sides and you can also get potential purchasers who perhaps 'exaggerate' some of the surveyors comments to help their cause along with the normal group of boat owners who think that their pride an joy is without fault.

I do NOT think that osmosis is the end of the world as far as a boat is concerned. With a boat of that age, it is usually a matter of when signs of osmosis will show rather than if. I know that there are some boats that seem to be free of the pox for ever, but they are the exception rather than the rule!

If you renegotiate (perhaps half the cost of the treatment?) then you will end up with a boat that is guaranteed pox free for many years and you will have peace of mind.

In the end, its up to the purchaser top decide what they want, but just saying 'walk away' is too negative an attitude to my mind.