gipsy gone..

vas

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Lofrans Tigres windlass restoration [was gipsy gone...]

morning all,

on the MiTos delivery trip thread I did mention that on the first day windlass died on me when chain got tangled in the store and wouldn't come out. Following gipsy and rope drum was freespinning and windlass would run freely, gipsy not engaging.

Had a go last afternoon with the "help" of the kids and undid (with a lot of hammering I may say) the wingnut and removed the gipsy and the shove gipsy. Yep, I'm confident of the terminology since I have the exploded diagram from Lofrans with me ;)

Windlass is a Lofrans Tigres 24V 1200W, 70ies vintage.

Gipsy chain wheel looks like it'd seen better days and will probably need replacement as it looks like this from the inner clutch side:
crackedgipsy_1.jpg


you can spot in the detail photo the allaround hairline crack:
crackedgipsy_2.jpg


the outer side of the gipsywheel has a minute crack nicely symmetrical around:
crackedgipsy_3.jpg


Lightly sanded it with 90emery, cleaned it, sprayed lithium grease (sorry the only one I had available) and Angelos re-fitted it:
angelosonwindlass.jpg


To the conclusion, the thing now works! I understand that a set of seals and a gipsy wheel are in order for an overhaul during winter.
Could anyone explain what happened on the delivery trip? I mean clutch slipped and somehow broke loose until I retightened it? Makes sense to anyone?
NOTE that when it was slipping it was both the chain gipsy AND the rope drum slipping! Now they are both locking and working properly.
Checking on the diagram, I cannot see how it is possible to do that without some internal damage, unless I have a selfhealing windlass...

I'm helping some good friends on a small yachting race tomorrow (typical 3 buoy thing within the bay), I'll be acting as the leadoff ship with the jury onboard and I need to anchor at around 20m. Hope the chain will come out and I wont have to manually retrieve 50+m of the thing later on :rolleyes:

V.
 
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BartW

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one of the gears inside is made from bronze, so if something goes really wrong, it will be the bronze gear that brakes.

perhaps that gear has lost a few teeth, (from a previous wrong usage) so that when it is onder load, ( pulling chain + anker ) and the missing teeth position is mating with another gear, then you could get the free spinning,

perhaps now while the load is off, the remaining base from gear teeth, make it all turning as if there is no damage
(just an idea)

have you opened the gearcase ?
it makes sense to inspect all the gears and the gear oil,
in my old winch the oil had a nice green brown cream collor :eek:
 

vas

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thanks Bart,

haven't opened the gearcase yet, will do during the winter, for now I'll add a bit of oil just in case (don't think there's much in there judjing from an oily patch to the port side of the windlass).

Yesterday I dropped and retrieved the anchor using the windlass half a dozen times to the marina depth (dunno around 4m). All was fine, not a single hiccup.

Will know for sure tomorrow. Curious though, as if what you're suggesting is indeed the case (sounds logical) then it would've happened by now.
If it was clutch slipping, the rope drum should be functioning normally (as there wouldn't be any problem on the gearing system and the horizontal axle)

Ah, also realised why the previous owner had this ugly chain bolted holding the rear of the windlass down... The rear screw securing the windlass on the deck was a 6cm woodscrew with hexagonal head and was not enough and wood was mashed up to this depth. Replaced it with a 12cm one drove it all in and looks tight and solid.

report back on this tomorrow

cheers

V.
 

vas

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Well, they are known as the travelling people, aren't they? . . . :D
got you there, they are spelt with a y as in gypsy not gipsy :p

Good luck with your repairs.
thank a lot, seems that I'm having good luck repairing what looks like major jobs that turn out to be stupid simple botched up jobs by the previous owner that take half an hour each to sort out...

Bet wont be like that once I get into relaying the teak...

V.
 

vas

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reviving a three month old thread just to keep topics a bit tidy...

So, windlass is for the last couple of months in my garage to be dismantled.
Borrowed various pulley extractors or whatever you call these things in order to remove the clutch and the rope pulley on the other side.
Eventually succeeded, clutch was relatively easy,

windlass_clutch_removal.jpg



the alloy rope pulley was a real bitch. Also as you can see from the photos someone had a go at hammering it badly, not got a clue as to why, and I'll need to get it to the machine shop and see if we can sort it out a bit (I know it's only cosmetic...)

windlass_ropepulley1.jpg

second view
windlass_ropepulley2.jpg


the manual lever mechanism was dead easy to remove though
windlass_manual_mechanism.jpg


removed the motor as well, and lots of sh!t came out of the main windlass assembly that doesn't really look like oil :eek:
windlass_motor_disconnected.jpg


Finally using an impact drive with a 4mm allen I managed (easily!) to remove the cover plate and see the insides.
There is another locking mechanism in there with a softish spring which I removed and I need to figure out how to remove the main shaft with the gears. They do seem to be in v.good order couldn't see any bits missing, but I have to remove it to check it properly.
windlass_casing_opened.jpg


Emptied around a lt of this oily thing so that I could turn it round and have a good nose around. Tried a bit of hammering on the main shaft but it doesn't seem to move at all. Will investigate futher unless anyone has already done the job and remembers how he did it.

Then I need to first get the casing for welding (actually filling the space of a bolt that cracked open and there was a wee leak of the so called oil outside on the deck)
Then I need to think about restoring the polished strip of the windlass casing (if I can be bothered that is!), find the right bearings and seals, look like standard off the shelf items, and put it back together.

got another 3 months to finish it off ;)

V.
 

vas

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I havent said this before, but I am really looking forward to seeing the completed project. I think its going to be the most interesting thing on this forum since the building of Match

thanks for the kind words, I'm simply trying to be reasonably structured and documenting the work done so other ppl can learn from my mistakes or be able to establish if it's a good idea embarking into something or not ;)

cheers

V.
 

david_bagshaw

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We had a similar occurrence while lowering the anchor, when the chain was running out. (in 1991)

I cant exactly remember the internal layout, but the problem was there is a sliding bit or cog inside that was binding on the shaft, so it did not latch on the internal ratchet or pawl. the internal bit is to do with the double action of the manual handle. A heavy clout by a hammer probably would have fixed it on that occasion. Hence your self healing winch.

The bit I remember very clearly was raising 60 mtrs of 10mm by hand,wind in 1/2 turn, place chain plate,move handle do it again in 15mtrs, with a 60kg anchor on the end!

The repair involved drilling out 4 set screws & much fine papering of the shaft & being certain the sliding bit slid easily followed by re a reassembly. worked for a further 4 years till we bent the shaft on take up anchoring in a 3kn current on the Rhine!

looking at the last pic post 6, the middle brass bit should easily slide on the shaft.
 
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vas

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looking at the last pic post 6, the middle brass bit should easily slide on the shaft.

yep, absolutely correct!

Spend 20mins hammering the fcker with lots of wd40 to get it off the key and axle. Seems that the "oil" in the casing was helping everything lock solid rather than slide...

So now I have EVERYTHING apart which was a feat and I'm v.happy about it :D

Nothing is bent, worn or missing teeth, the ss gears have a bit of pitting on one particular line presumably by staying like that dipped in this oil-brine for too long. Nothing emery cloth wont clean.

So no spares needed other than new seals. I'm at the office right now, will post pics of the process in the evening. ;)

Morale of the story, if the oil goes south, dismantling, replacing seals and reassembling is v.much recommended. I'll get the # of the seals in the thread for future ref.

Cheers

V.
 

BartW

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So now I have EVERYTHING apart which was a feat and I'm v.happy about it :D

glad you made it !
good news that you will be able to repair and re-assemble that orriginal windlass !

while trying to disassemble my old winch here in the warehouse,
unfortunately, we have almost reached a point of no return, using heat, hammer, saw, ...
and damaged a few parts :mad:

my experience and advice about anker winches:
- each time after a anker recovery, salt water is going in gaps and bearings of the windlass
- that water is quickly evaporating in sunchine,
- salt powder is accumulating in gaps and bearings, causing oxidation, and blocking parts over time.

so my advice is to flush the winch with fresh water after every usage
 

vas

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Lofrans Tigres windlass restoration [was gipsy gone...]

Bart,

sorry to hear that. Don't know where in the process you're stuck, but I was stuck for a while figuring out how to get the gears out, turns out that the right order is first to remove the short axle going to the el.motor and THEN the long axle with the bronze gear will easily come out.

For the first to loosen up, you need to remove the oil level hole and hit with a hammer and pin the axle towards the el.motor end, that was easy...

so this is the thrush bearing on this short ss geared axle:
windlass_int1.jpg


the axle itself looks like this (note the darker colour areas all lining up presumably touching to the bronze gear for a long time unused and with acid contents...)
windlass_int2.jpg


the large bronze gear assembly with the internal latching mechanism that was locked
windlass_int4.jpg


the main axle with the key to the locked big of bronze that david_bagshaw mentioned it should slide easily, yeah right took me twenty mins of hammering on the bench and a good part of a wd40 can... FWIW, now it will slide in and out just fine!
windlass_int3.jpg


all dismantled, easily fit in one drawer waiting for reassembly
windlass_int5.jpg


hunting seals today, may put it back together next week after the welding and polishing ;)

cheers

V.
 

DAKA

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Bit of a side issue but I thought I would post a photo of mine when it went wrong........

There was a snake / eel tangled in it :eek:
No idea how it got in.

snake1.jpg
 

vas

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Bit of a side issue but I thought I would post a photo of mine when it went wrong........

There was a snake / eel tangled in it :eek:
No idea how it got in.

snake1.jpg

photo's too small to figure out what's going on, but I guess it wasn't nice having to remove some sort of shredded animal from in there :eek:

fwiw, cleaned the seals and managed to write down the numbers on them for reference:

TAURUS S.0332 42 35 6 4 [x2 on the main axle for rope & gipsy]

TAURUS 000889 35 25 7 3 [x1 short axle towards the el.motor]

Did a quick search but not at all familiar with coding of them so didn't come up with something useful, seals do look v.familiar though so should hopefully get the first two tomorrow, doubt about the third one...

V.
 

david_bagshaw

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seeing the picture of brass bit on the shaft has jogged my memory further.

not only must the brass bit slide easily on the shaft, but also while under part load so check the brass bits key way does not bind on the steel key, when the brass bit is rotated in both directions putting pressure on both sides of the key.


If that sounds odd imagine the brass bit is a door knob, twist right and left & pull& push it should slide off & on easily and smoothly in all directions.
 

vas

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seeing the picture of brass bit on the shaft has jogged my memory further.

not only must the brass bit slide easily on the shaft, but also while under part load so check the brass bits key way does not bind on the steel key, when the brass bit is rotated in both directions putting pressure on both sides of the key.


If that sounds odd imagine the brass bit is a door knob, twist right and left & pull& push it should slide off & on easily and smoothly in all directions.
yep exactly!

I realised that it has to do that, but although the exploded diagrams I downloaded from Lofrans has TWO keys one oposite the other in this bronze/brass bit mine only has one. If you see on the photo along the axle, the key was sitting slightly offcenter in a way pushed and locked in the hole and binding. Removed it, cleaned it and pushed it in the other way, locked so well that I cannot remove it now :rolleyes: and still the brass/bronze bit fits and slides more or less OK. Will treat it with a bit of 200+ paper and make sure it is smooth moving under angular force.

However there's no point/case of the bronze/brass bit slip/sliding on the main axle as far as the chain is concerned. Seems as if it's a function for the rope drum only (and I've never used it as yet tbh, so probably not missing much other than it locking loose when the chain gets tangled in the chain box...)

Cheers
 

david_bagshaw

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The handle should make both the drum & gipsy rotate at the same time. It is there incase the electrics fail.

In view of your comments about the key, I would replace it, easily obtained from engineers merchants, and would consider trying to get a higher grade one. Also the fact the brass bit was binding, it would be tightest at the wall of the keyway, where it was stretched over

the fact it was stiff one way round shows it has rolled over a bit, and is at risk of doing so again, with now more room to do so. should only cost a few euro.

If the shaft key way has been streached open, you could have a wider one milled in, as there seems plenty of room to have the keyway enlarged in the brass bit.

there are one or two engineers on the fora who would be able to accurately say if this is possible, rather than my gut feeling!
 
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vas

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after spending 23euro on bearings, seals, keys and lockpins started yesterday after a good clean to put it all back together.

And I try not to remember the 50euro I paid for repairing the casing where a piece of ss L shape was bolted to make sure no chain would lock on the gipsy and try to turn a whole circle around it messing the whole thing (I guess there must be a proper word for it...) So engineer had to cut some badly pitted material, and fill it with new alloy. Told him not to drill the holes as I'm not sure if I'll get this ss piece back in. I remind you that the oil of the casing was sipping out through the original thread for this.

windlass_1.jpg


Happy to report no left overs :rolleyes:

feeling and checking the main axle it was obvious there was a bit of a bulge caused by stress forces on from the key, hence key binding. Filed, cleaned oiled test fit a few times before it would move smoothly in and out.
Anyway, fitted and the whole main axle assembly is now moving smoothly under force as well as loose.
Replaced the two main axle bearings and seals, relatively easy to remove with a few hammer hits and ok to fit them back with no proper press.
windlass_2.jpg


Had a go at cleaning the casing and finding ways to restoring the two finishes, rough sort of pitted on the whole and a strip of polished one on the center:
windlass_3.jpg


and a closeup on the worse scratched area where I had to use a 120emery and work on it before buffing with a powerdrill.
windlass_4.jpg


Even managed to clean the oil level check cover which wasnt a solid metal thing as I thought but actually featured a glass window, a ss plate behind it and a red line for the oil level, amazing what five mins of cleaning can do...

windlass_5.jpg


Finally, cleaned externally the el. motor, checked the brushes they look like they've got another 10-20years in them ;)

windlass_brushes.jpg


So before I finish with this job, anyone care to suggest a polishing method to restore the shinny bit? Not too bothered tbh, but wouldn't really like to leave it as is, as it's quite porous and I'm afraid it will turn very rough very soon...

cheers

V.
 

david_bagshaw

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the ss L shape name for it is a stripper, as it strips the chain from the gipsy and is absoutely essential. The cain will be released without it on dockside tests, but in the real world, winding in with the chain loaded, it will for certain jam without the stripper being re fitted.

The shiny cleat would have been anodised, whichis a very thin layer, probably removed by papering etc.

If it were mine I would paint it all, starting with the appropriate chromate wash coatprimer for aluminium.
 

vas

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the ss L shape name for it is a stripper, as it strips the chain from the gipsy and is absoutely essential. The cain will be released without it on dockside tests, but in the real world, winding in with the chain loaded, it will for certain jam without the stripper being re fitted.

The shiny cleat would have been anodised, whichis a very thin layer, probably removed by papering etc.

If it were mine I would paint it all, starting with the appropriate chromate wash coatprimer for aluminium.

hm, this explains why the previous owner had a small pulley (around 2inch dia) bolted via a ss bracket to the deck on the same spot...

OK, will go tomorrow and check/measure the L shaped thingy on an identical windlass on the boat next to mine ;)
Should have it fabricated at the same time I put my order for the alloy plates for the dash design as per the other thread, so two birds in one stone.
Just need to remember and drill the two holes and put 1/4inch threads on them now before I fill the casing with oil :rolleyes:

regarding polishing, I definitely wont go for anything fancy and I'll leave it unpainted for this year. Don't particularly like painting on machinery tbh!
I'll just monitor its condition over the summer and decide for next year.

thanks v.much for the insight David!

cheers

V.
 
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