Get your position right...

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GTom

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Lifeboats around Cardigan bay had a busy night on 8 September. We were passing the area that night and heard the desperate attempts of the CG to get their positions (the yacht was out of our VHF range, never heard their answers).
Apparently four teams didn't get much night sleep and quite a few gallons of fuel were burned on that bouncy, wet night. The boat seems quite OK to me, Genny furled - there was plenty of wind that night to sail if the "mechanical failure"
was the engine, not the fridge that cooled the beer...

https://rnli.org/news-and-media/201...eboats-respond-to-mayday-call-in-cardigan-bay
 
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I am always surprised at the readiness of people calling for assistance to rely on lat and long alone. If I am at the helm, or even at the plotter, I have little chance of remembering the numbers accurately, and even if I write them down, it takes a while to find the position on the chart or plotter. A simple 'three miles southwest of Beachy Head' or similar would cause me to prick up my ears if I knew that it was nearby.
 
johnalison said:
I am always surprised at the readiness of people calling for assistance to rely on lat and long alone. If I am at the helm, or even at the plotter, I have little chance of remembering the numbers accurately, and even if I write them down, it takes a while to find the position on the chart or plotter. A simple 'three miles southwest of Beachy Head' or similar would cause me to prick up my ears if I knew that it was nearby.
Click to expand...

The CG insist on lat and long positions. There are at least two reasons for this.
1. Simple lack of local knowledge.
2. Possible confusion due to multiple places having the same name.
 
NormanS said:
The CG insist on lat and long positions. There are at least two reasons for this.
1. Simple lack of local knowledge.
2. Possible confusion due to multiple places having the same name.
Click to expand...

This case they didn't seem to get any bearing and distance kind of information or at least a rough idea apart from being somewhere in Cardigan bay...

Regarding GPS: I do understand that someone can loose all means of positioning when e.g. jumping out of a burning boat. But this case I see a more or less intact yacht being towed, meaning at least a smartphone on board. Not to mention, carrying a paper chart you do have time to cough up at least an estimate, based on where and when did you left from. Again, you probably can't do this when the water reached the navigation table on a sinking boat, but this wasn't the case here.
 
NormanS said:
The CG insist on lat and long positions. There are at least two reasons for this.
1. Simple lack of local knowledge.
2. Possible confusion due to multiple places having the same name.
Click to expand...

I am entirely happy for the CG to insist on lat and long, but a distress call or other urgent call needs to reach other stations such as ships and yachts that may be in a position to assist or provide more information. If/when I am in this position myself, I would want to give myself the best chance of getting help as soon as possible.
 
GTom said:
This case they didn't seem to get any bearing and distance kind of information or at least a rough idea apart from being somewhere in Cardigan bay...

Regarding GPS: I do understand that someone can loose all means of positioning when e.g. jumping out of a burning boat. But this case I see a more or less intact yacht being towed, meaning at least a smartphone on board. Not to mention, carrying a paper chart you do have time to cough up at least an estimate, based on where and when did you left from. Again, you probably can't do this when the water reached the navigation table on a sinking boat, but this wasn't the case here.
Click to expand...
I sail with family. In honking weather the wife is much more likely to be looking after the (young) kids than steering. And anyway, I know for a fact that she'd would only agree to be on the helm in bad weather in the direst of dire emergencies (say I was dead or completely incapacitated). And I don't have any form of self steering. So unless I was able to heave to there's no way I could get to the chart table.

In good weather its perfectly fine. The boat is balanced enough for me to leave it to sail itself for a few minutes and keep an hourly position fix marked on the chart, fill in the log etc. In really bad weather that's not gonna happen, so if it comes to it I'll be reading lat & long off my phone or using distance and bearing.

I suppose I really ought to buy a DSC radio...
 
This thread does highlight the value of DSC.
But if I was Balbas with a good nonDSC radio I might be inclined to get a tiller pilot..........lots of reasons for being able to leave the helm
 
FairweatherDave said:
This thread does highlight the value of DSC.
But if I was Balbas with a good nonDSC radio I might be inclined to get a tiller pilot..........lots of reasons for being able to leave the helm
Click to expand...

A tiller pilot wouldn't be much use - I have a wheel!

Honestly, this is my first 'big' (ie not a dinghy) boat and I don't know how long I'll be keeping her. I could easily chuck £20k at her for things like updated electrics, wheel pilot/sea feather, new sails, new rigging, solar, hot water, new engine etc etc etc. I have to draw a line somewhere and that line is before self steering. But anyway, we digress. DSC would solve the problem highlighted in the OP very neatly.
 
johnalison said:
I am entirely happy for the CG to insist on lat and long, but a distress call or other urgent call needs to reach other stations such as ships and yachts that may be in a position to assist or provide more information. If/when I am in this position myself, I would want to give myself the best chance of getting help as soon as possible.
Click to expand...

I fully agree with you.
 
Balbas said:
A tiller pilot wouldn't be much use - I have a wheel!

Honestly, this is my first 'big' (ie not a dinghy) boat and I don't know how long I'll be keeping her. I could easily chuck £20k at her for things like updated electrics, wheel pilot/sea feather, new sails, new rigging, solar, hot water, new engine etc etc etc. I have to draw a line somewhere and that line is before self steering. But anyway, we digress. DSC would solve the problem highlighted in the OP very neatly.
Click to expand...

Agreed it’s a big expense but an autopilot will change your sailing so much for the better if short handed. Whether hoisting sails or just trimming them as you go along the boat will go better and quicker. It’s an added bonus that you can pop downstairs for a minute or two as needed.
 
Balbas said:
A tiller pilot wouldn't be much use - I have a wheel!

Honestly, this is my first 'big' (ie not a dinghy) boat and I don't know how long I'll be keeping her. I could easily chuck £20k at her for things like updated electrics, wheel pilot/sea feather, new sails, new rigging, solar, hot water, new engine etc etc etc. I have to draw a line somewhere and that line is before self steering. But anyway, we digress. DSC would solve the problem highlighted in the OP very neatly.
Click to expand...

Absolutely fair enough, I was just thinking about your situation with a family and not being able to leave the helm very easily.
This thread is a brilliant advert for DSC (and I checked the RNLI link, it was a mayday not a pan pan)
 
NormanS said:
The CG insist on lat and long positions. There are at least two reasons for this.
1. Simple lack of local knowledge.
2. Possible confusion due to multiple places having the same name.
Click to expand...

Which makes sense, but any transmissions intended for other vessels (whether that's the original distress call, or the Coastguard putting out a subsequent request for nearby vessels to assist) really needs to include a position description as well. With that we can instantly establish whether there's any chance of us being able to help, or if it's fifty miles away. As John says, someone sitting in the cockpit of a typical yacht is neither going to remember the numbers nor have the means at hand to write them down.

Pete
 
johnalison said:
I am always surprised at the readiness of people calling for assistance to rely on lat and long alone. If I am at the helm, or even at the plotter, I have little chance of remembering the numbers accurately, and even if I write them down, it takes a while to find the position on the chart or plotter. A simple 'three miles southwest of Beachy Head' or similar would cause me to prick up my ears if I knew that it was nearby.
Click to expand...
I agree that to transmit Position followed by Range and Bearing ticks all the boxes but I can't see your problem with getting the Position. Don't all plotters have a Nav page which gives Lat and Long in big bold numbers?
 
I have been in the position of asking for CG assistance in very squally (20-30kt) conditions and and having to give them updated positions. Despite having a mike and plotter at the helm, the wind was bad enough to affect the command mike, so I had to go below to the chart table radio and plotter be audible, leaving a rather inexperienced crew to handle the boat.
No big problem, but it would have been more difficult if single handed.
Is "What 3 Words" the way of the future? I'm surprised that there seems to have been little discussion of this innovative system on these forums.
 
biscuit said:
I have been in the position of asking for CG assistance in very squally (20-30kt) conditions and and having to give them updated positions. Despite having a mike and plotter at the helm, the wind was bad enough to affect the command mike, so I had to go below to the chart table radio and plotter be audible, leaving a rather inexperienced crew to handle the boat.
No big problem, but it would have been more difficult if single handed.
Is "What 3 Words" the way of the future? I'm surprised that there seems to have been little discussion of this innovative system on these forums.
Click to expand...

On a recent GPS-enabled DSC (handheld or not) radio you press the red button, comment that the CG put some milk in the tea they're bringing and the cavalry comes in <1hour.
 
LadyInBed said:
I agree that to transmit Position followed by Range and Bearing ticks all the boxes but I can't see your problem with getting the Position. Don't all plotters have a Nav page which gives Lat and Long in big bold numbers?
Click to expand...
I have the e7, which is actually a little harder in this context than my old B&W RL70. On the old set, if you moved the cursor around the chart its lat & long were displayed on a line at the top of the screen. With the e7 this doesn't happen and all you can do is click on the cursor, read off the position, re-position the cursor, read off the new position and so on. In either case, the problem of remembering all the numbers being read out remains, and is a skill that I have never mastered.
 
LadyInBed said:
Don't the CG use VHF RDF triangulation to fix position anymore?
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Sadly not. All the DF equipment was removed a few years ago. Even though it was working fine, the MCA didn't want to have to pay to have it repaired if it went wrong.
At least, that was the situation at Thames CG (RIP). Other CG stations may have been different.
 
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