German Flag

[rico]

The boat I want to buy has the German flag. Although I am Italian and live in Italy, I am considering to keep the German flag, something apparently possible in to-day Europe.

Does anyone knows what are the rules, surveys and taxes a german sailing boat, 40 feet long, should comply with ?

Thank you to whoever will help

Have a good day

Rico

 

[HaraldS]

My boat is Germany registered, but like you I'm not German.
For boats up to 15m length it is pretty straight forward, larger boats require a survey and a more sophisticated proof of ownership.
In the later case the boat gets registered in the German Shipping Resgister and you can for example have a mortgage on the boat. The later is also possible but not necessary for boats below 15m.
Below 15m it's easier to just get the flag certificate. It requires:
Proof of your personal data.
Proof ownership, full payment.
Ship data, from yard certificate.
Two photos.
DM 70.- fees
There are no taxes or other fees.
I could send you the German language form if it helps.

 

[Guest]

Hi,
Thanks for an interesting contribution. I am considering buying a (rather expensive) sailboat in Germany. German Flag, German owner, less than 15m.
One of my concerns is how to verify that the boat is not used as collateral for a loan. Do you know if there is any way of checking that in Germany.

Oba

 

[HaraldS]

I think that if you want to take a collateral on a boat, that you need to register in the shipping register, where an ownership entry is as formal as with property. I don't think a bank would accept the boat as collateral if their rights were not registered in the shipping registry entry. So if there is one you can check and make sure it gets covered some other way, if the boat just has a flag certificate it's likely there is no collateral on it.
In both cases an ownership change needs to go through the BSH (Federal Office for Shipping and Hydrography), as a new owner you get a new flag certificate.
You can tell from the call sign if a boat is in the shipping resiter or if it just has a flag certificate. Call signs for boats in the shipping register are just 4 letters, a boat with flag certificate gets a call sign composed of two letters and four digits.

 

[byron]

und vot ist wrong mitt der Englander flag? Answer pliss or you vill be reportted to Terry Vogan und just remember vee haff vays off making you Tok.

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[Guest]

Byron, why is your reply in German. The poor man's an Italian and won't understand a single word. Please repost in Italian. And no jokes about more reverse gears than forwards, please. Let's not be too xenophobic to the underdeveloped johnny foreigners here.

 

[byron]

No phobias here about foreigners, I am a Bubble myself. I hadn't realised he was an Italian otherwise I would have suggested he posed the question in "Mota Bota & Yotta"
or "Practila Bota Owna"
Italian is easy to speak just take an English word and add a vowel.

ô¿ô
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[Guest]

Heya Byron, thank youa for at.

Isa gonna maka my lifa lot easier nowa I speaka doa Italiano. I'ma practising disa lingo anda thinka I'ma getting eet a pretty gooda. Gonna go and have my breakfast now, buta I can'ta find a da cutlery. Tolda da wife dat I want a fork and she's now given me a smack ina da teeth. What I say eh? Dees a wimin eh Byron, dey noa understanda eh?

Gotta da Italiano cracked, so any teepsa on speakina da buble eh?

 

[bryantee]

Re: speaking de bubble

Take the best arm waving frenchman(most of the technical words are french).The loudest dutchman(speaking on the telephone must be done at 110Db.)Boating terms are mainly Italian(thanks to the venetians)plenty of mallakas. B***//ks to you and me .learn that avvrio doesnt mean tommorow,only not today.and if its "coming from Athens ".That means next month or next year.Democracy means that any disscussion is open to all .and three greeks represent five points of view.and to cap it all ,probably have the best laid back lifestyle in europe.
and the language is all Greek to me. and today the sun is shining and the snow is on top of the mountains.

 

[Guest]

Re: German Flag : and now for something sensible..

It has always been my understanding that, certainly in UK, Holland & Belgium, you cannot register a vessel there unless you are domiciled there. I would have thought this applied to Italy and Germany as well. There may be a difference between different registry regimes, e.g. in UK the SSR and full Part 1, and you can get round the problem in England certainly by forming an English corporation but this is extra expense and more hassle.

Also, and again I can only speak from experience in a limited number of countries, you can run into problems with equipment. For example a Dutch type-approved VHF radio installation is different in subtle ways to an English one. If you have a Dutch registered vessel you must buy your radio in Holland also. If you have an English one it will be confiscated and you will be fined.

There also seems to me a question of regulations. From personal experience I know that a UK-flagged boat gets away with more petty infringements of Dutch regulations than a Dutch flagged one. We can plead ignorance. It is more difficult to plead ignorance if you are wearing a Dutch flag. If our Italian friend is intending to keep his boat in Germany (unlikely I guess!) then he may have a problem. If however he is taking it to Italy he may have an even bigger problem: everybody will rush to put their towels on all the vacant marina berths when they see him coming!

 

[rico]

Thank you, HaraldS.

Your answer has been very useful

Have a nice day

Rico

 

[byron]

Re: speaking de bubble

Theberrazzi! to what you said.
Oh! Yes! always advisable to call the AstoNomea (Police) a Pezzaveekee. That always impresses them with your knowledge of Bubble.

ô¿ô
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[rico]

Harald, excuse me but I need another info.

According to a post on another forum, in order to keep a boat with german flag the owner has to be Germany resident.

Not necessarily german citizen but necessarily german resident.

Do you agree ?

Apparently costs to keep a boat with german flag are much lower than a boat with italian flag, so I am trying to clear everything.

Thank you again

Rico

 

[HaraldS]

Rico,

that is an interesting point. I happen to be currently resident in Germany, but I cannot remeber the BSH making a lot of fuss about that, maybe because I gave them a German mailing address. I have checked the documentation at the BSH unfortunately the documentation is only in German, hence they might not make a regular business out of giving flag certificates to non resident owners. There is a paragraph on that topic which freely translated reads like this:

1. c) Additional requirements need to met by owners from member states of the European Union or German owners which are not resident in Germany. The BSH will explain details upon request.

If you want I could give them a call tomorrow and find out.

Harald

 

[rico]

Harald,

if it is not too much a trouble for you, please do.

My deal is almost closed (Jeanneau Sun Legend 41, 1988), so I should take a decision.

Thank you again

Rico

 

[HaraldS]

Ok. I'll let you know what I hear.

 

[jfkal]

Wenrt through the same trouble. Indeed the owner has to be a German or a company owned by a German majority. Even that however does not help if you are not a resident of Germany. I had to get a German national residing in Germany to assume full responsibility and be available for the authorities there. Luckily my dad agreed to do this for me. Asd long as your boat is un der 15m a certificate issued by the DSV (Deutscher Segler Verband) would do the trick but you would not enjoy "Flag Rights"

 

[HaraldS]

Rico,

I called them this morning and things are pretty much as jfkal pointed out in his recent post. They did fax me the additional requirements and the additional form.

It says that owners of ships who are members of the EU, but do not have residency in Germany, and that includes German nationals too, need to have a decalaration filled out by a resident of Germany who would sign responsible for meeting German technical and legal requirements as well as social standards on board.

Further the owner has to write a letter in which he presents the asigned German resident as realiable and finacially sound.

And finally a letter from a state authority of the owner confirming that the laws of that state are not in conflict with the legal requirements for carrying the German flag.

Harald

 

[jfkal]

Some more stuff. The german national in question has to present what is called (translated) testimony of conduct. esentially it as a document issued by the German authorities that the person in question is not a criminal.
Haralds last point is a toughy as well. Singapore did not want to issue that document, because they did not understand the question. It ask the authorities whether there are objections that the vessel in question carries the German flag. The guy pointed out that there are hundreds of vessels in Singapore harbour NOT carrying the Singapore flag and he did not have a form nor a clue why he should issue that doc. Eventuelly I made it up to the top brass and they gave me the letter.
What is wrong with the Italian flag?

<Footnote> I was always wondering why so many ship are under flags of so called Banana-Republic. Well ,they do it for a 1000 - 2000 USD fee and ask little to no questions. Now we know. It is damn hard to get your vessel registered under a desireable flag.

Try Belize or St. Vincent AND I am not suggesting that they fall into the category above!

 

[jfkal]

Some more stuff. The german national in question has to present what is called (translated) testimony of conduct. esentially it as a document issued by the German authorities that the person in question is not a criminal.
Haralds last point is a toughy as well. Singapore did not want to issue that document, because they did not understand the question. It ask the authorities whether there are objections that the vessel in question carries the German flag. The guy pointed out that there are hundreds of vessels in Singapore harbour NOT carrying the Singapore flag and he did not have a form nor a clue why he should issue that doc. Eventuelly I made it up to the top brass and they gave me the letter.
What is wrong with the Italian flag?

<Footnote> I was always wondering why so many ship are under flags of so called Banana-Republic. Well ,they do it for a 1000 - 2000 USD fee and ask little to no questions. Now we know. It is damn hard to get your vessel registered under a desireable flag.

Try Belize or St. Vincent AND I am not suggesting that they fall into the category above!