Genoa Sheeting Angle

[RobinA]

I sail a Beneteau First 24 with a roller furling genoa. When close hauled with the genoa sheeted hard in, the leech of the genoa is tight with no twist in the sail and too small a gap between main and genoa. This causes the front half of the main to back and a significant losss in speed.
The solution would normally be to move the genoa car further back except that the car is already as far back as possible. I assume that the genoa is larger than the boat was originally designed for.
One option is to keep a few turns on the furler to improve the sheeting angle - with the obvious loss of sail area.
Another option would be to fit a new longer track or move the existing track - fairly major undertaking.
A further option that is relatively quick to try out is to fit another block on a line to the genoa car effectively altering the sheeting angle upwards - but then the genoa sheet will be too high for the winch.
Does anybody have any further thoughts or ideas that will enable me to effect a modification mid season without the need for major work?

All (helpful) suggestions gladly appreciated

 

[michael_w]

Can you move the sail up the foil? That'll have the same effect as shifting the lead aft. See what you can achieve with a couple of shackles and a bit of string. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[MoodySabre]

I know somebody who bought a bigger than spec genoa for his Moody thinking it would help him upwind but he found that he just got overpowered. I'd check your genoa measurement with the standard spec and if it is too big then you won't feel so bad about reducing sail area, particularly if you end up with more speed. Could mean a recut to improve sail shape if that is the problem.

 

[CLP]

Moving the sail up the foil won't solve the problem, it will make it worse, you need to lower it on the foil if you can't move the sheeting line aft. If you lift the sheeting angle with another block above the genoa car you could try using yet another block further aft as a turning block and bring the rope to the winch from behind.

Extending the genoa track sounds like a big job to me. I think I'd go for having the sail altered, probably by taking about a foot off the luff at the bottom. I think you'll find this is not as expensive as you think.

 

[Guest]

My boat has blocks aft of the winches as well as able to take lead from fwd of them. If I fit block and lines as you obviously need - (barber haulers) - then you may be able to set up blocks aft of the winches as I can ...

OR

Fit the haulers and then shackle a block at toe rail before it gets to winch ... so that effectively the sheet goes via 2 blocks to winch ....

The trick with these things is to step back and view ... scratching chin for 5 mins ... A good idea also is to get someone to take photies of your boat under sail so that you can see the set from another perspective ... to add to your already viewed problem.

One boat I know - the owner insisted that he needed to bring sheet angle aft ... the photo showed that it needed more fwd ... OK - I don't say for you as you are specific about the leech being too tight.

Another has suggested raising the luff of the sail ? I think that will tighten the leech furether as the lead will angle more upward pulling more on the leech .. the sail needs to comne down to lower the sheet angle surely ? I could be wrong ...

If it is lower needed - then most boats would have a problem as the gennys are usually at bottom of foil anyway ! (Mines not !! cause I needed a touch up to tighten my leech !)

 

[gwc2004]

Are you setting the main sail properly. It sounds like the boom is to far out or the traveller is not central enough. The foot of the main may be too loose and are you using enough back stay to flatten the main off? I would think a small Beneteau would have a very tweekable mast and if you don't set the main right then you just increase drag and that leads to heeling.
Also, putting the genoa traveller forward will close the slot and tighten the leach but it will also open the foot increasing back winding of the main and inducing more drag and lowering your angle of attack.
You could try going to windward with just the genoa set and some backstay on and see how the sail sets and note the best car position. Then set the main knowing the head sail if correctly trimmed and then concentrate on getting the main tidy. Your main might just be too strechy to set well.

 

[RobinA]

Thanks for all suggestions so far - it's certainly given me some food for thought.
Lowering the genoa would help, but I doubt that I can lower more than half inch - will investigate this. Getting sail re-cut is a possiblity. The mainsail is brand new - so that is not the problem. Actually the sailmaker has offered to come out and check over the new main - so he may offer further insight.
Placing another block further aft as well as a barber hauler is a very real possiblity.
Backstay has been tensioned already to flatten mainsail. Traveller is in regular use and setting of mainsail has been experimented with.

I shall be considering all of your suggestions and am grateful to all

With respect to getting somebody else to watch. This is an excellent suggestion, but it's painfully obvious that the leech is overtensioned just from sitting in the boat. To be honest I've always known that the genoa and main do not work well together, but for cruising it's not been an issue to worry about. In the last few weeks I've started racing regularly and so have become a bit more critical.
As always as soon as you start getting more serious you start spending more money - but hey, you can't spend it when you're gone!!

 

[roly_voya]

I use the system of leading a sheet through the genoa carr to a block, running the genoa sheets back to turning blocks and then to the winches, it works really well and has following advantages. When moving the lead upwards (same as moving carr back) the block also moves outboard increasing sheeting angle so the slot is widend at the base as well as at spreader hight. Enable adjustments under load with pin stop track similar to what is possible with roller tracks. By adjusting carr and block together you get a very wide range of settings - inboard/outboard/foward/back. When polling out a headsail you simply release the block so the seet runs direct to the turning block which then acts as a spinacker turning block. The turning blocks reduce shock loading on winches but if fitted aft of winch the must be speced to take TWICE the sheet load

 

[RobinA]

Very interesting. Are your turning blocks fixed to the toe rail? On Salamander the toe rail is aluminium, and I'm not sure it would be sufficiently stong. Fixing to the fibreglass coamings would be a possibility.
Presumably the block attached to the genoa car(r?) is cleated to allow for adjustment, but where is the cleat fixed bearing in mind that the genoa car moves fore and aft?

 

[William_H]

Hello Robin. The aluminium toe rail should be strong enough for pulley attachment (I would have thought) Many people around here use it for barber hauler for spin sheets.
It may be that you have sheeted the jib on too tight. That is an easy thing to experiment with.
A simple barber hauler from the toe rail to the jib sheet forward of the jib car may be usefull to pull the sheet out toward the gunwhale may help. If there is enough rope between the jib car pulley and the clew. This arrangement can be excellent for reaching enabling you to temporarily pull the sheet down and out while freeing the sheet.

Anyway you are obviously finding windward racing is not so good compared to other boats. Just keep working at it. I think much of the success of windward competition comes from concentration on the part of the helmsman. You do helm from the low side don't you?

good luck olewill