gennaker or spinnaker

[Birdseye]

My new to me boat came with a decent cruising chute but the pullpit design is poor meaning that it needs mods to protect the bow light from the tack penant plus one of those Selden aftermarket sprits. Alternatively I could sell the chute, buy a spinny, and maybe a lightweight pole since the existing pole is ally. The boat is a 30ft bilge keeler ( I can almost hear Flaming shudder! ) but its as near to a performance 30 ft bilgie as you can get and I do plan some NHC racing.

The plus of the sprit and chute approach is easier handling for a geriatric crew. Maybe even indulge in a flexible furler for it.

What do you reckon will give best bang for the buck?

 

[rotrax]

In view of our advancing age I have just had a second furler fitted to our Motorsailer. This will take a 170% lightweight furling'Reacher' as up to now we have no light wind performance. It is what is known as a 'Solent' rig and will require furling to tack as it will not pass between the old forestay.
As we have a powered winch furling will not be a physical issue. Being able to use the sails in less than 12 kts true will be a revalation.
Might pay to talk with Pete Sanders at Lymington who gave us valuable advice. I found a used furler and modified my turning block to a quad from a pair.
Went off the idea of a 'Top Down' furler due to the storage issue when not in use, although some American Island Packet owners leave the top down furler and sail up all season.

 

[michael_w]

For non-planing boats a symmetrical kite is more useful as it can be squared back when running deep. In a 30' bilge keeler you are never going to go fast enough pointing up to overcome the extra distance sailed.

 

[Birdseye]

For non-planing boats a symmetrical kite is more useful as it can be squared back when running deep. In a 30' bilge keeler you are never going to go fast enough pointing up to overcome the extra distance sailed.

That much is clear speed wise but then if speed were the only issue I would have stayed with my deep fin Starlight.. But as I said we are geriatric and leaping about the foredeck is not as easy as it used to be, so part of the question is whther we can rig an asymetric to make handling from the cockpit practical.

 

[Tranona]

on my Bavaria 33 which I have just sold I had a cruising chute on a Selden furler mad by Kemps. flew it from the stemhead just forward of the furler. Most important thing from a handling POV is to take the furling lines back to the cockpit through the Selden double line stanchion leads and a double jammer block which in my case attached to the pushpit so easily reached from the helm. Approx 65 sqm, perhaps a bit bigger than you need, and I managed to handle it on my own. It fills that gap when a small foresail on a fractional rig starts to lose power. Very satisfying when you get it flying, particularly in a well balanced boat like mine. Hull shape (apart from the keels) and rig of your Sadler is not dissimilar from the Bavaria.

 

[doug748]

An ATN type tacker might allow you to fly your chute (or spinn if you buy one even) from a point towards the base of the forestay/furled genoa, keeping out of the road of the pulpit. This sort of thing:



You have less control but it's easy and they can be made cheaply if you are handy on the tools.

.

 

[Kerenza]

Ive converted from s sails to a sails, for just the same reasons plus crew numbers. 2 up we can fly

 

[Kerenza]

the code 0 or the top down kite easily. along with the small jib which we dont even need to winch when tacking, its not as fast as the 130sq.m S but then we would never use it 2 up. Ive got long sail bags along the rail to drop them into rather than keep putting them down below.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Love my momentum A-spin. So much so that I haven't flown the S-spin in the last 3 years. It's good to at least 160° true and I've flown it dead downwind in light airs. Rigged inside the pulpit forward of the forestay. I tack it outside.
Lovely!

 

[mrming]

One thing worth mentioning re: a-sails - if you race anywhere narrow and tidal where the prevailing wind blows up or down, sailing the angles can take you into foul tide. In my last boat I had good VMG with the a-sail but in the end gave up on it for this reason. With the sym spin we could bear right away and stay in the shallows or deep water depending on whether the tide was foul or fair.

 

[flaming]

My new to me boat came with a decent cruising chute but the pullpit design is poor meaning that it needs mods to protect the bow light from the tack penant plus one of those Selden aftermarket sprits. Alternatively I could sell the chute, buy a spinny, and maybe a lightweight pole since the existing pole is ally. The boat is a 30ft bilge keeler ( I can almost hear Flaming shudder! ) but its as near to a performance 30 ft bilgie as you can get and I do plan some NHC racing.

The plus of the sprit and chute approach is easier handling for a geriatric crew. Maybe even indulge in a flexible furler for it.

What do you reckon will give best bang for the buck?

Dunno why you'd think I'd shudder, the Sadler 290 is a cracking little boat.

There is no doubt at all that the fastest setup on a boat with that sort of performance profile (i.e displacement, relatively conventional) for getting downwind is a symmetrical kite. Whatever clever trickery you try with bowsprits, A-sails, furlers etc - the symmetrically rigged sister ship is going to beat you to the leeward mark every time once the wind is above 10kts.

But if you are happy to accept that, then there are ways of making an A-sail "not as rubbish" at getting downwind, the trade off though is that everything that makes an A-sail "not as rubbish downwind" also makes it more complicated / tricky to handle.

For example, the first thing to say is that the rule of thumb is that the bigger the bowsprit (and therefore separation between main and kite) the easier it is to run deep effectively with an A-sail. This is especially true when the boat is of the type prevalent in the early 2000s which had the mast mounted especially far forward in the boat. Which, looking at this photo, I think the Sadler to be.

Then cut of kite. To go downwind you want a kite with as big shoulders as you can get. Like this J109

Not this 109.

But, trimming the big shouldered A-sail is not as simple, and kites that are cut like that haven't tended to be quite as good a fit for a furler as flatter more reaching orientated sail.

 

[Birdseye]

Thanks Flaming. I thought you would shudder at the words "Bilge keel".

From those photos, the mast positioning is much the same at about 38% aft from the bow. But in the end what matters is ease of handling with maybe just two of us on board. NHC handicaps will eventually take account of the performance difference between S and A. It will be fun to see the results - I have always had S before now.

Isnt sailing a fascinating hobby/

 

[flaming]

Thanks Flaming. I thought you would shudder at the words "Bilge keel".

From those photos, the mast positioning is much the same at about 38% aft from the bow. But in the end what matters is ease of handling with maybe just two of us on board. NHC handicaps will eventually take account of the performance difference between S and A. It will be fun to see the results - I have always had S before now.

Isnt sailing a fascinating hobby/

I grew up sailing a considerably more sedate bilge keeler than the Sadler...

I think my main advice would be to fit the longest sprit you can get to fit, keep the current chute for more reaching angles, and get a proper "A2" downwind A-sail.

Oh, and then talk a regular crew from one of your local J109s to come out on a nice day and show you the tips and tricks for best gybes and drops.

 

[Kerenza]

Important point from flaming about kite shape and furlers when converting. I'm presently using a reaching A3, which we already had to fill the gap between small jib and S2. It furls really well, once we got the furling rope the correct length. I'm waiting to try an A2 as those shoulders may be a step too far.
Another thought about NHC, As the sailplan would be non standard you may have to talk to the RYA to get a modified base number?
K