Gas Safe requirements - Insurance survey - and 10 year old rigging

[ParaHandy]

About 5 years ago I fitted a rubber BS3212/2 high pressure LPG hose connecting the cooker (gimballed) to the supply. The surveyor now tells me this "requires changing" to an armoured rubber hose and "certifying by a Gas Safe Agent before use". There is not the slightest chance of any foreign object abrading this hose but for the sake of £16 I have changed it but, it seems a nonsense. And I have fitted neoprene sealing material to the side opening of the gas box inside the lazarette but, there is no lid to this box, there's a gap of about an inch to the underside of the lazarette roof. This seems acceptable to my surveyor, is it?

On another related matter, does anyone have the data that supports the YDSA (Yacht designers and Surveyors) assertion that rigging over 10 years old "should be replaced"? My boat has 12 separate stays, each 8mm and each with bottle screw etc, so the cost of this will hurt.

Many thanks


Douglas

 

[Bodach na mara]

I will watch the answers to this with interest.

On the subject of armoured cooker hose, I installed one of those myself before the last survey, following advise given then of the Calor web site and what I could glean from articles about the Boat Safety Scheme of British Waterways. I have since read the the armour may in fact conceal problems.

By my understanding, the gas bottle locker must be vebtilated top and bottom and the bottom one must be overboard. The top vent is best from outwith he inboard volume as well. This would be hard to achieve on my boat. I have put foam rubber strip round the vertical hatch into the locker (from one of the cocjpit lockers.)

I am also fed up with this unsupported requirement to renew rigging according to a time scale, taking no account of the actual rigging. Having said that, the only rigging I have broken was a stainless shroud on YW Dayboat. Mind you, the was a broken strand before the breakage and it went when four rather large students were hiked out to keep her upright.

 

[pvb]

I'd question the surveyor's comments. There's no requirement for armoured hose - indeed armoured hose is arguably more difficult to check for degradation.

As for rigging, I think I'd be guided by the requirements of my insurer. I replaced my rigging at 20 years old, anticipating a requirement for a survey by the insurer, but in fact the insurer was happy to delay a survey requirement until the boat reached the grand old age of 25.
.

 

[robmcg]

A surveyor just told me to replace the current armoured hose from the gimballed cooker for a standard orange type as the armoured type hides any degradation of the hose underneath. Go figure!
Rigging should be replaced on mileage covered, not necessarily age. Rigging a year old that has been around the world is more likely to need replacement than 10 year old stuff that has done coastal cruising each season. Finding someone to testify to this is another matter. Unless you have a biiiiiig trip planned, rolling replacement of stays is generally acceptable to many insurers and spreads the cost out over a few years to lessen the financial shock!

 

[Wandering Star]

I switched from a Taylor's paraffin cooker to a Nelson Spinflo gas cooker at end of last year. The full installation was done by a gas installer who issued me with the appropriate paperwork. The gas hose is orange rubber and not armoured.

 

[BabaYaga]

Regarding the standing rigging: The recommendation from rig manufacturer Seldén is to replace after 20 000 miles. This is provided that the rig has always been correctly tuned. Many boat owners do not tighten up the rig enough, they say. This increases the risk of fatigue.

 

[Tranona]

Either plain or armoured hose is acceptable. You can construct arguments to favour either over the other. The 5 year replacement recommendation applies to both. Gas bottle lockers must be external, not open to the accommodation and have an overboard drain above the waterline.

Don't think there is any YDSA rule that rigging must be replaced after 10 years. The life is not specifically age related and depends on a number of factors - none of which really predict time of failure. Some insurance companies require some sort of attention to the rig, which might be replacement as a condition of insurance. What they are really doing is reflecting that few people drop masts these days for inspection. Often they will accept (as did my insurer) a written report on condition from a recognised rigger. Their requirements may also reflect the intended use of the boat - for example if you are looking for cover for a round the world trip you would expect to be asked to show that your boat (including the rig) is suitable for that purpose.

 

[NormanS]

I have just recently done some research into the requirements for the gas hose to the cooker. While it was at one time considered best practice to use armoured hose, current thinking favours ordinary (HP) orange hose, because as others have pointed out, the armour braid conceals the condition of the hose.

The best suggestion that I have seen, from a fellow forumite, is to use standard orange hose, but wind spiral cable-tidy round it. That way, the hose is protected, but can still be seen.

 

[l'escargot]

When I bought my boat the rigging was 8 years old. I asked the surveyor if it was coming up for replacement at 10 years. He said no, it was good for at least 15.

 

[dylanwinter]

Regarding the standing rigging: The recommendation from rig manufacturer Seldén is to replace after 20 000 miles. This is provided that the rig has always been correctly tuned. Many boat owners do not tighten up the rig enough, they say. This increases the risk of fatigue.

wow, that is interesting

20,000 miles

on harmony I have no idea how old the rigging is

not that keen on replacing the lot so was planning to thoroughly inspect when the mast comes down and just replace the forestay

has anyone on here had age induced catastrophic rig failure?

D

 

[TradewindSailor]

The problem with stainless steel rigging is that nobody knows the condition of the roller swaged terminal connection with the wire: it is hidden. It could be x-rayed, but that is expensive. There was a capacitance? tester available some years ago, but I understand that that was only good if annual readings were taken through life of the connection, the meter regularly calibrated, etc..
Fatigue and crevice corrosion are the main worries. IF the external surfaces show signs of deterioration then one would expect the rigging to be replaced. The surveyor/rigger/insurer must have the confidence in the condition of the rigging and that of the roller swaged connection. If there is little confidence then it must be replaced.
I suggest that the insurers and the riggers can put hard data to the above .... but failing that I would replace my standing rigging every 10 years or sooner as failure could be expensive, and could be fatal.

 

[GrahamM376]

Our survey snagged the gas hoses and, as the Plastimo cooker installation instructions specify armoured, that's what I used to avoid potential insurance problems in the event of a fire. I've never heard of anyone carrying out DIY gas work on their own boat being required to have a Gas safe inspection.

I'm not surprised some surveyors are covering their backsides by limiting rigs to 10 years but, not all insurers require this. Ours were happy with a written report on our 12 year old rig, 50 euro well spent. Get a surveyor who's competent with rigging to do the inspection as a rigger has a vested interest in condemning it.

 

[Sandy]

I replaced the 30+ year old gas system last winter. The orange hose that ran from the gas locker to the copper pipe was as good as the day it went in!

 

[john_morris_uk]

I don't know where the word 'must' comes from in 'gas pipe must be...' For leisure sailors there is good practice and bad practice and recommended practice for gas but there is no 'must'. I suppose you can argue that your insurance company will expect you to maintain things sensibly, but for the most part you can do what you like unless you are coded for commercial work...

When we bought Serendipity we completely rerigged her. All new bottle screws and bottle screws etc. as we are approaching ten years I've only just phoned our insurers to check their requirements. They said that so long as it's inspected then they have no arbitrary time limit.

 

[charles_reed]

wow, that is interesting

20,000 miles

on harmony I have no idea how old the rigging is

not that keen on replacing the lot so was planning to thoroughly inspect when the mast comes down and just replace the forestay

has anyone on here had age induced catastrophic rig failure?

D

Yes - three stays parting at various times, but no catastrophe.

Finally a fatigue failure round 120% of the mast circumference, just above the coachroof. No catastrophe and no demasting

After several conversations with an Open 60s rigger, his advice was change standing rigging "once round the world or every 16 years, whichever the greater". He also would not touch stainless turnbuckles, specified bronze, and recommended an annual visual inspection. In his experience 90% of fractures were next to a swage. The distance agrees remarkably closely with Dylan's (perhaps percipient or even a genius).

Contrary to inferences - the caps are the most stressed on any boat - the forestay relatively unstressed. The only complete shroud parting I had was of a secondary, the others were unstranding of an inner and a crack in a SS caps turnbuckle.

Shrouds on any 3/4, bendy, keel-stepped mast are a paradigm-shift greater in stresses compared to an upright masthead rig.

Regarding gas piping - it is all date dependent and should, automatically be replaced after 5 years - rather as with religion, opinion amongst "experts" is all-conquering - get 2 together and they'll arrive at three agreed conclusions.

 

[dylanwinter]

Yes - three stays parting at various times, but no catastrophe.

Finally a fatigue failure round 120% of the mast circumference, just above the coachroof. No catastrophe and no demasting

After several conversations with an Open 60s rigger, his advice was change standing rigging "once round the world or every 16 years, whichever the greater". He also would not touch stainless turnbuckles, specified bronze, and recommended an annual visual inspection. In his experience 90% of fractures were next to a swage. The distance agrees remarkably closely with Dylan's (perhaps percipient or even a genius).

Contrary to inferences - the caps are the most stressed on any boat - the forestay relatively unstressed. The only complete shroud parting I had was of a secondary, the others were unstranding of an inner and a crack in a SS caps turnbuckle.

Shrouds on any 3/4, bendy, keel-stepped mast are a paradigm-shift greater in stresses compared to an upright masthead rig.

Regarding gas piping - it is all date dependent and should, automatically be replaced after 5 years - rather as with religion, opinion amongst "experts" is all-conquering - get 2 together and they'll arrive at three agreed conclusions.

What to replace for safety reasons is always a worry.

The forestay probably needs replacing beacuse it is subject to wear from the roller reefing, is impossible to inspect and if it goes the lot comes down towards the cockpit - although I do have a gantry which should protect our heads.

I am hoping that if the back stay goes the mast will stay up and there are two stays on each side

I am very conservative with the amount of sail I have up

so I shall drop the mast when I am on the pontoon round at Hayling Island Yacht co, consult my fellow pontoon owners and replace where necessary

The problem with sailing on a budget it is hard to know what to replace or buy for the sake of safety

survival suits all round, life rafts, epirbs - suddenly I can no longer afford the trip

sailing is not without danger... and you can spend so much money on safety that you end up not being able to afford to go sailing at all

I know that if I had to buy every conceivable bit of safety gear I have been told is essential then I would never go sailing

the biggest risks remain falling out of the dinghy, falling off the boat or hitting something - and expensive safety gear will not stop any of those from happening

the costs of getting Harmony out of the solent are racing towards the £1000 - only £100 of that is on boat related gubbins while the rest is yard storage fees (£100 a month in Littlehampton), £75 for craneage, £200 a month for the pontoon at Hayling, £60 Chichester Harbour License, petrol to and from the boat to home, insurance

this is the first time I have been overdrawn since I went freelance 25 years ago

I expect to be living on tick for most of this year -

D

 

[KellysEye]

Our hose was changed to armoured after a gas safe inspection found chafe in the rubber hose. A 10 year renewal of rigging is normally required in an insurance policy.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A 10 year renewal of rigging is normally required in an insurance policy.

That's what I thought until I phoned my insurers last week! See my previous post, it's always worth asking.

 

[Tranona]

A 10 year renewal of rigging is normally required in an insurance policy.

No it is not as various posts in this thread indicate.

 

[charles_reed]

What to replace for safety reasons is always a worry.

The forestay probably needs replacing beacuse it is subject to wear from the roller reefing, is impossible to inspect and if it goes the lot comes down towards the cockpit - although I do have a gantry which should protect our heads.

I am hoping that if the back stay goes the mast will stay up and there are two stays on each side

I am very conservative with the amount of sail I have up

so I shall drop the mast when I am on the pontoon round at Hayling Island Yacht co, consult my fellow pontoon owners and replace where necessary

The problem with sailing on a budget it is hard to know what to replace or buy for the sake of safety

survival suits all round, life rafts, epirbs - suddenly I can no longer afford the trip

sailing is not without danger... and you can spend so much money on safety that you end up not being able to afford to go sailing at all

I know that if I had to buy every conceivable bit of safety gear I have been told is essential then I would never go sailing

the biggest risks remain falling out of the dinghy, falling off the boat or hitting something - and expensive safety gear will not stop any of those from happening

the costs of getting Harmony out of the solent are racing towards the £1000 - only £100 of that is on boat related gubbins while the rest is yard storage fees (£100 a month in Littlehampton), £75 for craneage, £200 a month for the pontoon at Hayling, £60 Chichester Harbour License, petrol to and from the boat to home, insurance

this is the first time I have been overdrawn since I went freelance 25 years ago

I expect to be living on tick for most of this year -

D

Dylan,

My experience of breakages has not been consequent on the amount of sail up but rather the seaway through which you're making way. Whilst I appreciate that you want to replace that which you can't see - you will be able to visually inspect the forestay, when you have the mast off and my caps are taking x5 the load of the forestay.
You have my heartfelt sympathy - sailing in the UK is uncomfortable and expensive - that's why I'm sailing in Greek waters. Flight out to Thessaloniki £17.50 and back from ATH £52.65 - with BA. Guess that's less than your petrol costs over 6 months. Food prices about 60% of UK. Hard standing for 8 months - washdown - crane in/out £826.

Apropos of insurers' demands - a survey report, mainly to confirm the £57.337K they were covering was a reasonable value, price £400 pa. at 20 year mark - no demands for rigging changes, cover for overnight single-handing and a £300 excess (£75 on dinghy and OB). No demands for armoured hoses, rig replacement or any of the fabulous demands aired on this site.
The survey did pick up that 4 extinguishers were out-of date and that the gas hose was 6 years old and both needed replacement.
It all depends on your relationships with insurers, IMHO. Keep them informed, be open and be competent - uberrimae fides rules.