Gas installation Eu vs US

[SolentSnowgoose]

A friend is in the process of revamping a US manufactured boat ( not in the EU I hasten to add) and we have recently been discussing the gas system.

According to the local boatyard the US approach is to use rubber hoses from the regulator directly to the appliance.

This surprised me so I looked up (an old copy of) the ABYC standard and found a reference which appears to prohibit the use of copper pipe unless it is internally tinned.

Can anyone explain the background to this and why Europe and the US appear to be so far apart.

 

[Tranona]

There is a BS a nd an ISO covering gas installations and it does require use of copper pipe. New builds use the standard to comply with the RCD but it is not compulsory. However it would be difficult to get a Safety Certificate with a non compliant system. You can get guidance on installations from Calories Gas Southern in Southampton.

 

[VicS]

A friend is in the process of revamping a US manufactured boat ( not in the EU I hasten to add) and we have recently been discussing the gas system.

According to the local boatyard the US approach is to use rubber hoses from the regulator directly to the appliance.

This surprised me so I looked up (an old copy of) the ABYC standard and found a reference which appears to prohibit the use of copper pipe unless it is internally tinned.

Can anyone explain the background to this and why Europe and the US appear to be so far apart.

This may explain the origins an fate of the requirement in natural gas installations http://www.copper.org/applications/fuelgas/pdf/Official_Copper.pdf The same was perhaps applied unnecessarily to LPG installations.

Problem, or perceived problem, seems to have been with hydrogen sulphide in natural gas.

 

[prv]

As I understand it, the US approach requires that there be no joints anywhere except inside the gas locker. So you have a single unbroken length of hose running from the regulator in the locker to the appliance. The rule also implies no shutoff tap next to the cooker (that would require a joint) so they generally have a solenoid valve in the gas locker controlled from a switch by the cooker. This also has the advantage of isolating the whole of the run through the boat, which we can only do by grovelling in the locker to turn off the bottle - not something that most of us are going to do between every cup of tea.

Over here, we instead have a paranoia about hose, and insist on using lots of copper. But copper can corrode, crack, and chafe (it's tougher, but also far thinner) and it also often involves compression joints inside the cabin, any one of which might be improperly made and leak.

Obviously most gas systems are safe, regardless, otherwise there'd be boats exploding left right and centre. But to my mind the US approach has a lot to recommend it.

Pete

 

[pvb]

There is a BS a nd an ISO covering gas installations and it does require use of copper pipe. New builds use the standard to comply with the RCD but it is not compulsory. However it would be difficult to get a Safety Certificate with a non compliant system. You can get guidance on installations from Calories Gas Southern in Southampton.

All-hose installations are permissible under the Boat Safety Scheme rules, subject to various caveats (the most onerous of which is that the hose must be accessible for inspection along its entire length).

 

[Blueboatman]

Arguably, the solenoid-in-the-locker and a rubber one piece tube fed snugly through a continuous plastic conduit as far as the cooker galley recess would mitigate joint, chafe and vibration issues, job done.

Ij boats past, I used to keep the in-use gas cylinder next to the cooker, in the cabin.Usually tucked behind the steps and with the on/off knob handy, like... The procedure was you turn on at the bottle then the stove, off at the bottle then the stove, etc each and every time, and a visible one metre length of empty hose to a fixed ( non swinging) installation was KISS simple...

Well I am still here to write about it!

 

[prv]

Ij boats past, I used to keep the in-use gas cylinder next to the cooker, in the cabin.Usually tucked behind the steps and with the on/off knob handy, like... The procedure was you turn on at the bottle then the stove, off at the bottle then the stove, etc each and every time, and a visible one metre length of empty hose to a fixed ( non swinging) installation was KISS simple...

There's a lot to be said for simplicity, but I still wouldn't be keen. I had a Campingaz bottle leaking from the joint between bottle and valve this summer, so turning off the valve didn't stop it.

Pete

 

[Marsupial]

Over here, we instead have a paranoia about hose, and insist on using lots of copper. But copper can corrode, crack, and chafe (it's tougher, but also far thinner) and it also often involves compression joints inside the cabin, any one of which might be improperly made and leak.


Pete

A gas fitting was changed on my Jeanneau while it was under warranty, the 8 mm gas pipe was much thicker than "normal" microbore pipe, 2 mm wall thickness "refrigeration" grade (I think); (standard microbore pipe is .07 mm wall thickness). Provision was made for a solenoid valve in the locker but none fitted for the UK market. A manual valve is provided in the galley where the copper pipe joins the armored flexible hose to the cooker. So from the gas locker to the cooker there are three joints "in the boat" ie outside the drained to transom locker, two on the valve one on the cooker.


all I have to do now is find a Gaz bottle that doesn't leak, 9 years of ownership and 4 regulators later I am convinced that most of the time its the bottles that are responsible for the gas smells in lockers. But I have had leaks from the on off valve spindal on 3 regulators, suppliers say it cannot happen but leak detector spray says different, the quality of some of this equipment is appalling.

 

[Blueboatman]

There's a lot to be said for simplicity, but I still wouldn't be keen. I had a Campingaz bottle leaking from the joint between bottle and valve this summer, so turning off the valve didn't stop it.

Pete

That is precisely why we end up with complicated systems that require multiple components and regular replacement/inspection/accreditation..

C/Gas regulators do seem to be pretty cheap nasty things often 'knock offs. I use a squirt of fairy liquid to verify the seal, when forced to use C/Gas and rarely get more than a couple of years from the regulator device ( in a gas locker hoho).

 

[pvb]

Arguably, the solenoid-in-the-locker and a rubber one piece tube fed snugly through a continuous plastic conduit as far as the cooker galley recess would mitigate joint, chafe and vibration issues, job done.

Sadly, that's not deemed to be a good idea, as you can't inspect the hose.

 

[npf1]

IIRC the US rules also required that the hose is armoured hose. Seems are far more sensible way to me that using copper & unions..

 

[JumbleDuck]

Sadly, that's not deemed to be a good idea, as you can't inspect the hose.

Can't you pull it out, have a look at it, and feed it through again?

 

[pvb]

Can't you pull it out, have a look at it, and feed it through again?

I don't think a BSS examiner would take that route.

 

[Blueboatman]

That is the difference between the spirit of safety and the legalese, isnt it?
A one piece rubber hose that you can affordably and easily replace by feeding it along a nice smooth bore, well routed conduit, or a lot of fiddly clips, bends, joints, I could go on but at the end of the day you are right, that is what the insurance /liability ramnifications are!

 

[prv]

I don't think a BSS examiner would take that route.

Fortunately I have no plans to go ditch-crawling

Pete

 

[maby]

There's a lot to be said for simplicity, but I still wouldn't be keen. I had a Campingaz bottle leaking from the joint between bottle and valve this summer, so turning off the valve didn't stop it.

Pete

I'll second that - have had both Campingaz and Calor cylinders leak from their conectors in the last few months.

 

[Blueboatman]

Heres a thing. In the States you buy your gas cylinders ( and they allow nice aluminium ones too) so it is up to you not to chuck them around and bugger the threads and valves and then 'hide' behind swapping them in..

 

[prv]

Heres a thing. In the States you buy your gas cylinders ( and they allow nice aluminium ones too) so it is up to you not to chuck them around and bugger the threads and valves and then 'hide' behind swapping them in..

Yeah, but at least here I don't need to worry about the daft Scandinavian design that put the gas bottles up in my anchor locker where they get wet and salty. I just change them for new shiny ones before they get too rusty

Pete

 

[Blueboatman]

I merely present the information. What you do with it under the Captaincy of your own boat is entirely up to you ( subject to the local legislation lol)

 

[Gordonmc]

My US built boat came with the original gas fittings still installed, comprising big deck mounted aluminium propane tanks, pressure guages, solenoids and a run of flexible hose to the stove.
Although the hose was flexible it wasn't rubber as we know gas hose, more like a hard plastic, but clearly marked for gas with date stamps. It may have been armoured.
As the set up was several decades old I replaced the hose with copper and dumped the US tanks in favour of a 4.5 Kg Butane and 3.9 Kg propane (Calor) tanks which sit in their own gas locker.
If I could source the plastic pipe I would use it in a continuous run. But I can't. So I didn't.