Garmin A/P Qs

[vas]

dear all,

searching at the options I have on my Garmin chartplotter/radar setup, I realised that I *MAY* be able to upgrade to a fully garmin setup replacing my CETREK A/P electronics as well keeping costs fairly low.

Now, it seems that I can use some chartplotters as A/P controllers, thus getting rid of the GHC (aka helm control unit). Wonder if that's really possible as the literature on Garmin's site doesn't (obviously) mention this at all.

I mean I do come across bits of garmin A/P systems going cheap on ebay, so I could "built" a system with the ECU and CCU for less than a grand. If I can get by and skip on the display (GHC) and as space is at premium, I could have a decent setup utilising my existing A/P pump.

Now there are a few bits of wishful thinking in here, so Qs:

A. can I run a Garmin A/P without the GHC, or do I NEED to have one wired up???
B. can a Garmin A/P system use an/any existing 2wire 12V pump that was working fine with the existing setup?
C. can I run the system without the shadow drive? Looks like I could disengage the A/P steer and re-engage if I wish (OK, maybe going a bit OTT as it's only an extra 140 quid or so...)

So plan would be to buy a 721xs and the relavant bits and have the a/p run from the lower helm or my android mobile/swmbo's ipad via the 721 builtin wifi. That should set me back around 2K euros (or if I'm late a gazillion new drachmas but let's not get into that now...). Would it work?

cheers

V

 

[jrudge]

I think you would need one.

The display does allow you to engage auto helm after certain operations - go to for example - but there is not as far as i know an "on demand" turn on and off.

Next you can just engage the AP in heading mode - keep going! There is not way that I know of to turn this on on the plotter.

You can also tell it to go left or right, but again not as far as i know on the display.

The control from the plotter is the route and basic on and off.

Happy to stand corrected.


Note : This is all based on a 7012 model

 

[jfm]

A. I'm pretty sure you can. The a/pilot screen on the plotter or ipad just mimics the GHC. I can try disconnecting my GHCs (both) and see if it all still works, and report back, in couple of weeks. All that said, I thought it was only 8000 displays that had a/pilot control functionality in the MFD, but I might be out of date and they might have included it on other display series via s/ware updates. I don't actually recall having it on 7000
B I don't know for sure but intuitively yes.
C. Yes, shadow drive is an option (even though bundled into most Garmin a/p kits) and the manual refers to setting the thing up without a shadow drive valve. In fact I seem to recall there is a "shadow drive fitted? Yes/no" option in the set up routine

 

[jfm]

I think you would need one.

The display does allow you to engage auto helm after certain operations - go to for example - but there is not as far as i know an "on demand" turn on and off.

Next you can just engage the AP in heading mode - keep going! There is not way that I know of to turn this on on the plotter.

You can also tell it to go left or right, but again not as far as i know on the display.

The control from the plotter is the route and basic on and off.

Happy to stand corrected.

J, you can do all those things from 8000 screen (and ipad). The a/pilot screen on the 8000 (and iPad but let's not go there following your recent post!) will do everything that the GHC little controller will do. Furthermore, you can do it all from a GRID in the armrest too and that is very cool because you have joystick steering when in heading hold mode (I'm just in the process of fitting a couple of GRIDs)

V, I wondered if you can also do it from the last series of Garmin remotes, this one http://www.cactusnav.com/garmin-ghc10-remote-control-pilot-systems-p-14074.html. I think this thing "talks" to the GHC10/20, unfortunately. I can lend you one for a couple of months if you want to try it. (I don't use it much)

 

[vas]

thanks guys,

actually I'm rather confused on the capabilities of all the various h/w that garmin produces.

Jrudge, you probably have a 6-7K series which is could be slightly different in A/P integration?

John, yes, used to be the 8K series was the only one to support that, but the new(ish) small ones, 721 741 and 751 (which I still not sure what differences they have other than basemaps!) do have wifi/bt and the full support for garmin helm. There are a few videos around that clearly have an iPhone mirroring the 741 display and doing everything from fishfinder to radar. Got to search the relevant pages on A/P control on the online manual, but I feel it is supported.

Which begs the Q what is really missing from these new and rather cheap plotters?
Answer seems to be (from my studying at least) that they are not fully networked, so cannot connect a sounder module (don't really care if I get the sounder version with Chirp or whatever it's called) or other network devices (not sure I want to connect to anything else tbh, open to options though!) or a second plotter (which I also don't really care for aesthetic reasons )

OK, will do a bit more studying and come back with more, unless someone beats me to it.

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

Ah yes, those new 741 etc machines. Forgot. Yes they seem to do most of what 8000 does. Perhaps they have slower processors - the video processing on 8000 is extremely fast eg when in 3D chart mode and you do a "fly around" of the boat and all that, but it's hardly important

 

[vas]

V, I wondered if you can also do it from the last series of Garmin remotes, this one http://www.cactusnav.com/garmin-ghc10-remote-control-pilot-systems-p-14074.html. I think this thing "talks" to the GHC10/20, unfortunately. I can lend you one for a couple of months if you want to try it. (I don't use it much)

hm, didn't even know if it's existence... It's amazing how cryptic and non-engineering the garmin site is. It doesn't explain where this thing connects to, being an RF device, I gather it's going to be "talking" to the GHC and not the ECU or compass ball thing that are hidden somewhere down below, so wont work if I don't have the GHC installed

Ah yes, those new 741 etc machines. Forgot. Yes they seem to do most of what 8000 does. Perhaps they have slower processors - the video processing on 8000 is extremely fast eg when in 3D chart mode and you do a "fly around" of the boat and all that, but it's hardly important

yes, speed of the 8K is amazing, but I can live with less flare on my cheap tub

still studying the specs. I think it will be all possible, BUT no-one answered Q #2, will it work with ANY pump??? (yes trying to save some money on the pump and messing about wiring it all up )
I notice the "smart pump" has NMEA or whatever connection to it, but the older ones look like normal pumps to me with plain wires.

cheers

V.

 

[tjbrace]

Question 2. I used the old hypo ram (pump) when I changed my NKE AP for a Garmin AP. Works perfectly. We are sail boaters but the electronics should be similar.

 

[vas]

Question 2. I used the old hypo ram (pump) when I changed my NKE AP for a Garmin AP. Works perfectly. We are sail boaters but the electronics should be similar.

thanks, reassuring to know!


Well did some studying, everything looks straightforward regarding installation, EXCEPT for a much repeated warning that unless you connect the yellow wire out of the GHC display to the CCU (course computer) and the black wire to the same earth as the ECU, you wont be able to turn on the A/P. Then it goes on saying that every other GHC display that is meant to be turning on and off the A/P needs it's yellow wire connected to the CCU.
Now, it's unclear what turn on the A/P means. Is it powering it on, or is it engaging it? Seems like it's powering it on, which means a trigger current or whatever to do it. Dead easy to simulate it if I get my hands on a display for a few days.
Will go through reading the 741 plotter installation manual in case it also features this magic yellow cable

ECU connects with a special cable to the CCU, considering placement, means I need to get a longer cable as CCU must be fwrd and low probably under the cabin floor, whereas ECU must be less than half a metre from the pump which lives on the transom
Straight line distance must be 6+m, once you route it properly we are talking 9m!
CCU and display connect to a NMEA2K bus and good thing is that having the RS11 Noland reading engine data and pumping them to the NMEA2K bus, the A/P will also get tacho readings that it needs (not sure why though!) and obviously GPS data from the antenna (and guess the builtin plotter one) Also interesting is that there's no rudder sensor (which I thought is necessary and expensive!)
So, it seems that if I solve the yellow wire mystery, I should be okay without the display, run it off my mobile and have a very neat and minimal upper helm layout

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

More reading, not looking good!

doesn't seem to be a way of running the dockside or the Sea Trial wizard without the GHC display
So either borrow one and tune the system and then use some trick to turn on and off the A/P or buy the display as well.

Further, there's no mention of running A/P options and tuning the thing in use from the chartplotter. OK, not absolutely sure about that, but there wasn't any relevant menu on the owners' manual. So looks like if sea state changes, I wont be able to alter gain or whatever settings without the display. Don't think that's acceptable tbh.

V.

 

[jfm]

Dang. When I sent you the garmin gmd10 displays I also had 2x ghc10 ap controllers brand new but they were no use to you so I sold them on the for sale forum on here, for peanuts!

 

[vas]

Dang. When I sent you the garmin gmd10 displays I also had 2x ghc10 ap controllers brand new but they were no use to you so I sold them on the for sale forum on here, for peanuts!

not to worry, how should I know that I would be considering scraping the CETREK two years ago

would like to keep the whole nav eq upgrade under 2K euro and it doesn't seem likely. So will probably keep on looking for s/h a/p turning up (which is almost impossible to get hold except for the GHC10s as ppl switch to the newer GHC20s) and make my mind on the way. Still progress is painfully slow and I need to get up to speed once the weather improves!

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

Question 2. I used the old hypo ram (pump) when I changed my NKE AP for a Garmin AP. Works perfectly. We are sail boaters but the electronics should be similar.

Hi there,

following my reading, it seems you probably have the GHP12 Marine Autopilot System for Sailboats, right?

If so, it's even more confusing as it seems that most Garmin A/P (if not all) use the same ECU which has 4 plugs. One for the CCU, one for Power and the other two are for the pump. Couldn't find any wiring diagram for simply getting a plain 2wire pump in the system
Care to explain if you can? Seems that you need to do something with the feedback plug, I guess the other one you just strip the wires and connect to existing pump? Not quite sure I like it as pump seems to draw some serious current, relays involved?

It's amazing that going through pages and pages of PDF manuals I still haven't got a fcking clue which model # comprise each kit (not that I'm sure I do know ALL the A/P kits they produced or currently sell! )

John, have you got any contact email or forum that I can ask a few A/P Qs to someone knowledgeable? There is no official dealer in Greece and the quasi dealers I've phoned just want to sell a complete system for 4-5K and wont bother with me (expected tbh...)

cheers

V.