Future WNSesses

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TonyJones

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Ladies and Gents

One of the things that has always puzzled me about WNS scenarios is that they are frequently rejected by SOME people on the basis of 'Neither I nor anyone else would have got themselves into this ridiculous situation in the first place, so the whole scenario is rubbish.'

But WNS relies on theoretical situations which are less than ideal. Take the last one: some people thought that the decision to let the boy go down to the cockpit and start getting the fenders out was wrong. A perfectly valid comment, but IMHO no reason to rubbish a situation that was clearly intended to provide a MOB situation. WNS scenarios often have to start from a less than ideal point; after all the best skippers avoid getting into awkward situations through superior seamanship.

Would it be better if instead of having YOU in the WNS hot seat, we talked about a hypothetical skipper to go with the hypothetical situation? Then we could have suggestions as to how he could avoided his/her dilemma before moving on to how to extract himself/herself from it.

Best wishes
TJ
 
Rejected!

That's a clear-cut attempt to keep the wns within the boundaries of logic - a suicidal proposal, if I've ever seen one.
Surrealistic replies are what make these threads worth reading.
After all, if you're just interested in proper answers, they told you since the first reply to call a mayday and look for the kid.....!? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
The art of teaching (people to learn from mistakes) is to make the scenario realistic. That means working the problem/question through to make sure it is solvable or you make the scenario meet the answer you want to get.

Examples like the last one where the SOG and DTG put you ashore make the scenario look stupid and like the writer hasn't bothered to check their work for accuracy or resolvability.

W.
 
The problem is Tony. And I don't want to sound derogetary. But you obviously have little experience with boats, where as, you are in a place, with vast experience.

It's not like being a reporter for the news of the world, where only you knows the story and everyone else believes it. Cos theres no evidence to disprove it.

First mistake was a F3 to 4, very rough in a 38ft boat, had to change course.

Christ, 3 to 4 are idyllic conditions, does it get better than that!

So from there on, there is no credibility.
 
Problem for me - apart from the rank stupidity of anyone worrying about fenders while on the plane and a mile or more from harbour - was the fact that you'd be ashore if you followed the speed/distance calculations in the original scenario.

There's a point where these things are just so wrong that you just say - aah, not worth following through.

When WNS is realistic, I work through them and gain a lot, when they're this unrealistic I ignore them (bit like Sudoku......)
 
Hi Tony. The idea of WNS is a good one. The senarios some times should be "unusuall" but always realistic. It's good to cause folk to think laterally about a possible senario that they have never considered before (ie "never thought that could happen to me").

Two suggestions: 1) either IPC team think up a WNS and test it in house with experienced "mobo" colleagues to refine and test the WNS before publishing it here, and/or 2) ask readers to present a real life WNS dilema that actually happened to them, but with out revealing the outcome. Again test and refine this with in house colleagues before publishing the WNS.

In aviation circles "anonymous" reporting of incidents, air-misses, and accidents have made for extremely interesting reading as well as being educational (ie share "real world" exeriences). Perhaps the WNS could be based on the build up to "real" past leisure boating incidents. "Confessions of a motor skipper"

PS: Don't be disheartened, it's a great idea, and just needs a little tweaking. Personally I think these senarious need more visual/graphical support with maps, diagrams, cartoons, etc. Text only is boring.
 
So in the light of some of the comments here on the credibility of some of the WNS scenarios, I thought I’d have a go at rewriting the current one. This is done on the basis that there is no right or wrong answer, and that the situation as described could have developed without gross stupidity on anyone’s part…

You have had a long weekend away by way of an end of season cruise and are returning home on Sunday morning. The weather forecast last night indicated a front moving in this morning and forecast winds rising to F3-4 on the nose for your four hour run home. The front seems to have come in earlier than forecast as the wind is already a steady F3 and gusting so you head off slightly earlier than you had planned and in consequence have a healthy spring tide flowing against the wind. After a couple of hours, the weather is beginning to deteriorate and the sea is becoming lumpy and uncomfortable. The plotter at the upper helm sounds an alarm and shows that it has lost the GPS signal and at the same time the speed/depth display shows zero. Your partner goes below and confirms that everything is working fine downstairs, so you conclude that the most likely cause is a loose connection in the junction box for the nav gear networking, which is likely to be impossible to access in a seaway. This is no real problem as you know the run home well and there are no real obstacles to avoid.

Your teenage son now starts to complain of sea sickness and goes to sit by the transom gate to minimise the effect of the movement of the boat, and not long after this point you make the decision to divert to a small fishing port. This will mean leaving the boat there for the week and getting the family home by train, but on balance you feel this is the most prudent course of action.

You haven't been to the port before but know from the descriptions in the Almanac that the entrance is tricky, and so your partner goes below to get the Almanac and pilot book, as you are about 5 miles out. The alarm is raised - your son is nowhere to be seen. WNS?
 
Anyone here who hasn't been in a stupid or dangerous situation at some point on their boat is either a very inexperienced boater or a liar.
Hopefully after a close shave you look back,kick yourself and say "that was close, next time I would......."
The best WNS scenarios would be real, a bit like the learning from experience in PBO but with multiple solutions considered.
I have one that gives me the shivers if I think about it, but I don't want to write about it here. Perhaps you could encourage people to send you real scenarios with the promise of anonymity. At least you can shut people up by pointing out it did happen to someone........
 
<u>Just for interest sake, here's two WNS senarios tested in Ireland last year</u>:

WNS 1 Break down
WNS 2 MOB

PS: We experienced a very "real" one based on a serious boat fire at sea luckily with a happy outcome, but it didn't seem that way initially. It still bothers me when I think of all the things that could have gone wrong that freaky day.

Real incident - BOAT FIRE
 
Excellent OF !, that's the way to do it, much less chance of guess work what exactly the senario is and more realistic.

Had to laugh at the picture of the fire hose on the Trent, same on the Tyne, useless ! , more chance peeing on a fire :-) although I imagine once he gave the motor driving the pump the berries it was a little bit better :-)
 
Hmm but that proves how difficult it is to write these things. The crucial missing info in that WNS was the length of time between last seeing son and realising he might be MOB. 2 mins is very different from 15. In real life you'd have this info
 
OK, so I'll pick a time: 10 or 15 minutes, I'm not 100%. But about that. No more, for sure. I think. Anyway, what do you mean, "I should have kept an eye on him," I'm driving the bloody boat.

So now I can get my position from downstairs, but have no decent visibility down there so I need to work out priorities - Mayday, backtrack, search, lookouts etc.
 
It shouldnt make any difference whether its "me" as skipper, or someone hypothetical. I suggets that you get all this stick because its a bit of a game doing so.
While the perfect skipper may have all the details, I suspect that when the crunch comes many people dont/cant recall all those finer details as to wind/tide/revs/speed.. they are propably alot more sh*t scared as to where the boy is. I dont think that you can recreate that for armchair reading.
Maybe in making specific examples, you create the problem. After all, how many times is exactly that scenario going to be repeated. If the MOB case was simply that someone hasnt been seen on board for 5 minutes, so what do you do?, then you get a broader range of answers. Sure it depends on lots of factors, but perhaps many of them wouldnt change a broad agreement on how to handle the situation.
As an example, and the only one I can volunteer, was when in reasonably shallow water, and in good weather, I couldnt get the anchor up. I admit, I really wasnt sure what to do....
Not very exciting, but I d have liked to have heard some suggestions before being in the situation, as my inital thought was, ermm, I seem stuck to the seabed /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Can you really put your hand on your heart and confirm that you didn't have a smile on your face as you typed the bit about a 38ft Flybridge was having a rough time in a F3-4 ?

In my opinion it is perfectly acceptable to post some excellent threads all worth a read without exception and for you to add a little 'P' taking but don't get upset when you get rumbled /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Several of us posted some real life events a few months back WTFNS ?
anyone of those could have been used for useful debate, just because the skipper of the day had found his solution does not mean it was the best one.

Keep them coming /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cheers
Pete
 
[ QUOTE ]
First mistake was a F3 to 4, very rough in a 38ft boat, had to change course.

Christ, 3 to 4 are idyllic conditions, does it get better than that!

So from there on, there is no credibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Haydn I certainly am not going to get in to ANOTHER discussion about my credentials and experience.

I suggest you go back and read the scenario again CAREFULLY. At no point do I suggest that this in an emergency diversion due to weather conditions. The wind is on the nose, it has started to rain and visibility is decreasing. Idyllic conditions? NOT.

It is therefore a perfectly reasonable decision to call it a day, divert to what you know to be a safe haven - and perhaps go for a meal or walk ashore. My credibility intact; yours zero.

Apart from that your post doesn't answer the question I am asking and contributes zit-all to the debate.

TJ
 
Wiggo

Yep, that's probably a better opening situation than mine - with one exception IMHO. I felt that if I gave the skipper a serviceable plotter people would point out that it would be a very simple matter to go back over the inbound ground track looking for the MOB slightly down tide as he couldn't have drifted far. Queue shouts of 'rubbish', 'what's the difficulty?' etc, etc.
Not so? That, anyway, was my thinking.

Best wishes
TJ
 
Elessar

Thanks for that. I do encourage people to send me real (or imaginary) scenarios with the promise of anonymity. An invitation to do so appears at the bottom of every WNS printed in the mag.

So please send me yours. I promise not to publish it unless you are 100% happy with the actual text.

Look forward to hearing from you.

TJ
 
Daka

See my reply to hlb. I DID NOT SAY the boat had a problem. I said the conditions were unpleasant for the crew.

As I remember, the WTFNS postings DID indeed stimulate debate. Great. I also remember that some of them had holes in a mile wide - particularly the one that set the scenario outside a certain pub on the assumption that everyone on this forum would be familiar with it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyway, what's your answer to my original question please? Would a hypothetical 'third person' skipper (he or she) be preferable to 'you'?

Best wishes
TJ
 
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