Friction! Mainsail hoisting!

[dgadee]

I brought lines back to the cockpit (30 footer with a 13m mast) and it's very, very difficult to raise the main now. It isn't fully battened. I replaced the mast base block with a larger ball bearing one which helped a little bit. The line comes to the base block, out at 90 degrees and then turns (not too sharply) through two Spinlock deck organisers and thence back to the winch.

Although hard to raise, the sail comes down with little problem. The track has been flooded with lubricant.

What do you think? Winch too small? Tides marine insert? Different slides? Thinner new technology rope?

I was out yesterday and took a drill and winch bit with me. Drill was 65 Nm but it only got the main up 2/3rds of the way. Would prefer a solution that doesn't involve buying an e-winch thing.

 

[johnalison]

I think an exercise routine is called for. I have to admit that I am finding it harder to hoist the main on my 34, but that is fully-battened and fairly heavy Hydranet. In spite of this, I can do all but the last few inches by bracing myself against the mainsheet track which is a convenient few inches above the cockpit sole, even at my age of 83. I find that wearing gloves helps, especially early in the season, but my guess is that your mast base block is quite small and making a sharp angle for the line to turn round.

 

[Daydream believer]

If you pick the sail up on the ground you will see that it is quite heavy. No wonder it comes down fast on its own. You are hoisting it quite a height & have to accept that. I have 8mm dynema halyard on a full length battened mainsail on a 14 M mast. But a new halyard cost £220-00, 6 years ago. That does help. I can only pull the sail 60% of the way up by hand (with one turn around the winch). After that it is a handle job.
It helps to head into the wind & let it flog lightly to help the cars run. Although I do not like doing that too much with my laminate sail. The sliders should be much easier without full length battens. You might like to check that the deck organisers are rotating properly, 2 sounds like a lot of friction & they have plain bearings that are not meant for sharp turns.

 

[jwilson]

If you go to the mast and pull does it go up OK? If so the problem is probably friction in your lead aft. If difficult at the mast are the slides actually correct for the mast track? The fact that they fit does not mean they are right. There are slight differences in sizes.

 

[Martin_J]

I was going to say the same as JWilson.. are the slides correct for the mast track?

You've not mentioned what mast or slides you have but the selden rigging guide, as an example has a number of different slides and which one you use depends on the exact luff groove width and cross section etc...

Another thing.... Do you know for sure that the sheave at the masthead is free to rotate under load. If it were worn, then hoisting would get increasingly difficult (or down right impossible), yet as you say, letting go the halyard will still allow the sail to free fall.

You could hoist on a topping lift but if that is also on an internal masthead sheave then in all likelihood, it's masthead sheave will be of the same age.

To rule both masthead sheaves out, hoist a totally spare block to the masthead on the existing internal halyard, having pre-fed a spare/extra rope through it which you will use as a test halyard.

You can then use this extra external halyard as a test halyard, even feeding it through the foot sheave and back to the cockpit...

At least then you can rule in or out the sheave(s) at the top.

 

[Martin_J]

Correction : It's the Selden Sailmakers guide that details the slide used for each different luff..

Check here.
https://support.seldenmast.com/files/595-542-E.pdf




And on the page above that you will find another tip on preventing the slides from jamming in the luff groove..

 

[Sandy]

I hoist the main on a 10.10 m (33 feet in old money) with the lines set up as yours with ease.

When did you last clean the track? It might be worth doing that then re-lubricating. For good or bad I use silicon spray.

 

[NormanS]

I only hoist mine once a year. In-mast furling.

 

[Norman_E]

My old 45 foot boat with a heavy full battened mainsail and a 12mm halyard took a bit of effort, but I could pull the sail up by hand to about a yard above the second spreader. That was probably about the same weight of sail as mainsail of a 34 foot boat. After that I had to winch it. What I did find was that the worst friction came from the fairly small diameter sheave on the deck organiser, and from the clutch ahead of the winch. It was best to put a turn round the winch and open the clutch. When I first had the boat it had ordinary plastic sail slides and was considerably harder to raise. I changed them for Rutgerson cars which made things easier.

 

[Norman_E]

I only hoist mine once a year. In-mast furling.

I hoist them every trip, its worth it for the good sail shape.

 

[Poignard]

I hesitate to ask but are you topping up the boom sufficiently?

 

[Tranona]

Just fitted a Tides Marine track and slides. Difference is amazing. Not led the halyard back yet but from the mast all bar the last few feet hand only. drops easily.

As suggested you need to check where the resistance is first.

 

[dgadee]

I will take the Isomat mast down this winter and have a look. The organisers and block are all new so friction is not through wear. The masthead block may be a problem - it's a 40 year old boat. 35m of 8mm dyneema cruising is coming out at around £150 - not too bad.

That image of the sail slide fastening is interesting. Those plastic connectors to the slides kept flying off so I replaced the missing ones with the tape the image says you shouldn't use.

Yes, pulls up ok from mast about 1/2 way and then winch for the rest, but I moved the winch back to the cockpit so that's not an option now.

Boom on topping lift until sail up.

And as for exercise regime. I think not.

This is a real problem, by the way. I was coming back this morning and would normally have put the mainsail up (I was just on the light wind enough) and thought, no - too much trouble, just motor.

 

[Martin_J]

It only takes a few minutes to hoist a spare block to the masthead to rule out the masthead sheave..

It's a good few years old.. likely to have an oval centre hole by now and not be turning. At least with the quick test you'll know.

 

[Rappey]

I have a stainless wire. Many say its outdated and i should change it ? But its so slippery, very unlikely to chaff through and makes raising the main pretty effortless. I do have to go to the mast to do it though.

 

[Daydream believer]

The top slideer on my Hyde sail is an aluminium one. When fitted it tended to tip slightly & then jam in the track. So much so that it caused a nick in the groove about 1 M from the top & eventually jammed the sail. I had to drop the mast & file the nick out. I spoke to Hyde & they supplied 2 different sliders for me to try. On top of that I moved the point where the halyard lifts on the sail very close to the mast. Originally it was in one of the holes further out from the mast. This made the slider tip & cause friction
You could look at how the top slider is constructed. Mine is bowed on the edge & has 2 fixing points to the sail so the head of the sail makes it sit more upright & not tip.

 

[Never Grumble]

With a 34 ft yacht I pull mine to the top with ease, but then the batten cars are roller ones and I also have intermediate roller cars as well.

 

[dgadee]

With a 34 ft yacht I pull mine to the top with ease, but then the batten cars are roller ones and I also have intermediate roller cars as well.

Kemp tried to sell me batten cars and full battens when I bought the sail. I was too tight. I should have gone down that route.

My sail is probably similar size to yours? 27 m2 or so.

 

[johnalison]

My old 45 foot boat with a heavy full battened mainsail and a 12mm halyard took a bit of effort, but I could pull the sail up by hand to about a yard above the second spreader. That was probably about the same weight of sail as mainsail of a 34 foot boat. After that I had to winch it. What I did find was that the worst friction came from the fairly small diameter sheave on the deck organiser, and from the clutch ahead of the winch. It was best to put a turn round the winch and open the clutch. When I first had the boat it had ordinary plastic sail slides and was considerably harder to raise. I changed them for Rutgerson cars which made things easier.

I forgot to say that I now open the clutch. I didn’t used to, with Lewmar clutches from 23 yrs ago. I don’t know if the clutches are knackered but I didn’t previously notice the friction that I now get. I have thought about changing to modern clutches but have had other priorities. All sources of friction add up and it is important to deal with all of them.

 

[roaringgirl]

I have a stainless wire. Many say its outdated and i should change it ? But its so slippery, very unlikely to chaff through and makes raising the main pretty effortless. I do have to go to the mast to do it though.

I crossed the Atlantic on a boat with wire halyard ends. They failed due to fatigue and we pulled quite a few sails out of the sea.