Free Charts

You are correct in saying paper charts will be history. But it won't be for at least another 15 years yet whilst techonology are not 100% reliable.

I'm not generalising the MCA I'm not the one who wrote on there information that it applies to all vessels large and small. I can not be held responisble for what the MCA chooses.

Like you I talk to the Captains and 1st Mates of Ships and Super Yachts more so Super Yachts I admit. I even had to inform one 1st mate that his chart correction was actually navigationally dangerous! But that's another storey.

Yes tracings etc are a pain on board especially when you have a small vessel. Which is why alot of people would rather pay a professional company once year to correct their charts instead. Which is perfectly acceptable now with MCA as long as the charts being used have the current year stamp on them.

The world of charting is evolving as is many things in the world. We must always move forward with the times not backwards. But what's the price you put on someone's life whilst it's charting is evolving?

Do you think I'll be ok jack or do you pay a few more pounds to make sure you or your family or your crew are as safe as possible on the cruel sea.

As for saying many post when they don't venture out of their comfort zone? If that is directed at me then you shouldn't prejudge me as little knowledge of my history is wrong.
 
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If you have electronics on board which nowadays most do then you pretty much are covered with detailed charts of your cruising area.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. I keep my C-Maps up to date as my primary reference but always have paper on the table so I can plot bearings, positions, etc. That way if I had to respond to a distress call, make an emergency diversion to another port, or whatever, I can lay off a course in a second with a protractor and get the boat pointing in the right direction and trimmed. Then I can sort out waypoints and the detailed pilotage from the C-Maps.

Those old 1980s charts would be fine as an adjunct to electronic charts.
 
Yes, they use paper charts....

Either free completely (if you are prepared to have advertising around the edges)

Or if you must have completely advertising free ones, then the princely sum of $9.95 for the entire east coast, or west cost, or Florida, or the frighteningly expensive $17.95 for the entire lot..... makes the standard Admiralty chart look a tad expensive don't you think?
 
US Chart paper quality is cr*p though ... and I was always annoyed at their folding ... could never get the creases out !! They didn't fit standard chart folios / drawers either ...

Still point is valid ...
 
They do cover different areas to the admiralty versions over on the american coast. Yes the quality of the charts aren't as good but that to me is down to preference of the type of chart your used to and prefer to use.

But there is a difference in detail and the layout between the two. Much like difference between Imray and Admiralty SC's.

Both have their pro's and cons.

Unfortuntately I don't have authority to comment on the prices of Admiralty products. But I know for the fact though if you bought your chart from a chart agent those charts if required by NTM's will be kept up to date so when you buy them they are bang up to date with the current information. That's pretty much what you are paying for.

If you bought the american charts and shipped them over here you'd pay tax on them as you would if you bought them over there.

They not fully corrected up to date to sale with the current American NTM if remember correctly.

I'm not here to sell charts either. I'm just saying my opinions on charts.

It's all down to personal choice in the end. How ever you see it yachting isn't cheap full stop. What price do you pay on safety is the other thing. And America don't cover the world as much as UKHO does.

Just to let you know prices go up again 1st Nov from the UKHO btw lol
 
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If your yacht cost you as an example 30,000 and you hit a buoy unmarked on your out of date chart. Have the unfortunate risk of either sinking or seriously damaging. Your insurance company turns round and says sorry not paying out because you used out of date charts. Surely you'd be better off just paying a few more pounds to use up to date charts be it a full set or electronic with just a few back ups?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you provide details of any instance where an insurance company didn't pay out for a leisure vessel because of out of date charts?

Cheers,
Rick
 
How would they know?

Vessel has sunk ... new chart got pulped by the large intake of water ... and do you really rely on your chart that much that you don't actually LOOK WHERE YOU'RE GOING?! ... Jeeze - even in the dark and fog we can miss buoys ... it isn't that difficult honest!
 
Have spoken to an insurance company a few mins ago to get confirmation. I was informed it would be reviewed on a case by case basis.

So they may pay out they may not.

All I said was insurance companies are starting to bring it into policies so I was informed at a conference. I just provided an example. I've not known of a case of a yacht claiming on insurance due to an incident and not getting a pay out or getting a pay out due to using out of date charts personally. Nor have I said I have. I'm sure no doubt some has one will have experienced either.

Maybe it's more the bigger yachts?? I will look into it more.

Yes people do not see buoys as an example in Fog especially if they aren't massive ones and are not light or have some form of sound. It does happen whether you choose to think how can any one still hit a buoy.
 
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Have spoken to an insurance company a few mins ago to get confirmation. I was informed it would be reviewed on a case by case basis.

So they may pay out they may not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is very different to what you said earlier:

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But don't expect insurance companies to pay out as most nowadays will not if you do not have up to date charts on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess thats my opinion formed.

Rick
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have spoken to an insurance company a few mins ago to get confirmation. I was informed it would be reviewed on a case by case basis. That was just one of hundreds of insurance brokers

So they may pay out they may not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is very different to what you said earlier:

[ QUOTE ]
But don't expect insurance companies to pay out as most nowadays will not if you do not have up to date charts on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess thats my opinion formed.

Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I just informed you what I was informed at a conference. You asked for comfirmation. So I went and got it for you. They may or may not pay depends on case by case basis.

Doesn't mean they definitely will pay out does it nor does it mean they defo won't pay out. Hence don't expect to be paid out if accident is found to be caused by out of date charts.

I also said most insurance companies I did NOT SAY ALL! won't pay out.

If you can prove to me that all insurance companies will pay out despite using out of date charts and that was the cause of the accident. Then I will stand corrected. I'm happy to say I'm wrong. But if a ship does hit something and it doesn't sink they do check the charts.

I've glad you formed an opinion on a post /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I think you're right to raise the insurance angle and remember that it's also your legal liability at stake. If you are navigating in a reckless manner then you may become liable for the consequences.

Insurance companies are now using sophisticated interrogation techniques along the lines of forensic interviewing right at the outset - telephone voice stress monitoring followed by specialist interrogators, see http://www.vfm-services.com/

They may well ask for evidence of purchase of charts, or other safety aids.

I experienced a gruelling interrogation by AXA (using VFN) over a perfectly legitimate travel insurance claim last November and it left me feeling beaten-up, ambushed, and quite shaken. I won, but it was not fun. This was over an £800 claim.

The insurance angle needs to be kept in mind in all things in a boat (or home or car, come to that) because the insurer has specialists whose sole job is not to pay out and they are playing very dirty indeed.
 
I can remember receiving charts that were certainly not bang up to date ... not even near the purchase date let alone the date arrived on board.
I bought replacement charts in a certain well known Scottish Port - from a well known Chart agent ... spent my port time correcting the charts as they hadn't !! And without tracings !

But those are other stories ....
 
20,000 ton tanker ... I'm 3rd Mate on bow with mooring party .... it's thick fog and pilot is edging us into Placentia Bay - Canada.......

I get call on Walkie Talkie .... Bow - keep eye out for stabd hand buoy ... let us know when you see it ...

So Bosun and I are peering into the grey murk ... then we hear ... BONK BONK BONK ... as the buoy clumps down hull side !! Yep - classic mistake in fog - looking ahead instead of down !!
 
Oh dear ... I feel an idea has been fed to Insurance Co. market !!

I always am wary of asking Ins. Co. questions about items that could null and void a claim - I get that horrid feeling that they may not have thought of it and bingo - it's now there and later turns up in a policy !

Things like : Out of date charts ..... Corgi Fitters for offshore / tidal water boats ... carriage of safety items .... changing rigging at 10 yrs regardless ...... replace sails at 5 yrs .... - NONE of these are required by any rules - but will become enforced by some twatty Underwriter cause he now sees a way out !

Sorry to sound rude - not intended ... but really - we should be careful of educating Ins. Cos / Underwriters ....

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Oh dear ... I feel an idea has been fed to Insurance Co. market !!

If at a conference I was led to believe what has been said about insurance companies becoming wiser to the situation with charts I can not be held responsible for asking a question to either back what I said up or so I can apologise for the wrong information.

As for recieving new charts not up to date from a Well Known Chart Agent then you should've reported the issue to UKHO as it is in breech of contract as far as I'm aware. They are tied if they are an official chart agent to sell up to date charts only.

I can not pass judgment on who the company was with out knowing nor would i do it on a public forum.

As for correcting them with out tracings well that is how they should be done as the tracings are only guides and shouldn't be full trusted for positions.

edited: wrong smiley /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif that's better
 
Re: Oh dear ... I feel an idea has been fed to Insurance Co. market !!

The agents were a well known National Chart Agents ... shop was in a well known East Coast Scottish port. More than that info is dangerous !

As to tracings ... all ships I was on that had Kelvin Hughes Service had also the additional Tracings ... as far as I was aware they were officially sanctioned / accepted and accredited - I know this - they certainly made the job a lot easier and faster ......

I used to be friendly with another Chart agents and spent hours in with the "correctors' ... they used the tracings !! NoM's were at side but rarely opened unless a point had to be checked ....
 
Re: Oh dear ... I feel an idea has been fed to Insurance Co. market !!

I sail the north east coast and outside of the river/ estuary I can't think of anything that is on a chart now that wasn't on a chart 20/30 years ago that would bother a craft with 2mtr draft , beyond the 5mtr line. I've lost count of the times that major and I mean major buoys have been reported off station !.
Any immediate probs like new wrecks are buoyed well before been charted ! so guess I'd go with sensible use of old charts until closing the land/river , and here that changes daily( a new chart issued every 2 weeks!) and bouyage should almost be viewed as a guide rather than gospel
 
Re: Oh dear ... I feel an idea has been fed to Insurance Co. market !!

[ QUOTE ]
The agents were a well known National Chart Agents ... shop was in a well known East Coast Scottish port. More than that info is dangerous !

As to tracings ... all ships I was on that had Kelvin Hughes Service had also the additional Tracings ... as far as I was aware they were officially sanctioned / accepted and accredited - I know this - they certainly made the job a lot easier and faster ......

I used to be friendly with another Chart agents and spent hours in with the "correctors' ... they used the tracings !! NoM's were at side but rarely opened unless a point had to be checked ....

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh defo I use tracings all the time. And yes the tracings produced by KH are sanctioned by UKHO. Nothing wrong with using Tracing's I never said that. I just said the correct way is to use the NTM and have the tracing's as a guide. It is the long and painful way but the correct one lol
 
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