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Clyde_Wanderer

Clyde_Wanderer

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I have three charts to get rid of, if anyone wants them before I dump them, their free.
English channel, Needles to Start point. Stanfords corrected to jan1985.
East coast,Farne isles to the river Tyne Admiralty, corrected to1997.
East coast,river Tyne to river Tees,Admiralty, corrected to 1998.
Should I just dump them?
Seems like a waste.
 
Don't dump em , they're perfectly alright for navigation practice so if nobody wants them for something better , yes please /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
They're probably fine for navigation, even if not corrected! Just don't rely on buoy positions & light characteristics. Rocks never move & harbours only change occasionally - generally for the better.
 
Poor advice from a man who sails around moving sandbanks..

Not everyone who reads this forum has your experience.

EDIT>> Or a blinkin greet windfarm off North Hoyle..
 
Going by those dates they're navigationally unsafe/dangerous to use on board.

I'd be surprised if they're still the current edition. They only good now for wrapping paper, draw lining, gaskets, kids drawing paper or to practise on.

Don't through them away do something useful with them but do not use them on board for navigation.
 
If you sail around moving sandbanks, you should not be trusting a new chart much more than an old one. The only difference is going to be that you know the old one must be treated with caution, and the new one should be. The time between survey and publication is plenty long enough for sand banks to shift about.
 
Charts are now promised to someone who I will post to next week.
I sail the Firth of Clyde, so they are no good to me, came with the boat from around Newcastle area.
Thanks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Going by those dates they're navigationally unsafe/dangerous to use on board.

I'd be surprised if they're still the current edition. They only good now for wrapping paper, draw lining, gaskets, kids drawing paper or to practise on.

Don't through them away do something useful with them but do not use them on board for navigation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I assume you would destroy my entire UK / North Sea folios collected over years when I was sea ... every cancelled chart relevant to my area was brought home ... as well as when duplicates found ... some of them are from 80's (actual print / edition could be 60's or earlier .....)

To condemn as you have done - IMHO ... no. Unsafe ? Not really in reality. As Searush said ... and I agree with him ... buoys / lights etc. may be in error - but major items as rocks etc. usually do not move that much.
IMHO charts that cover the harbour or where real detail is needed - get best you can ... for rest ... even my ancient antique collection would do ...

Oh - by the way .... old charts do make excellent lamp-shades ..... !!
 
you're both of course correct, but you have forgotten a minor part of the history aspect, things do change between then and now, rocks don't move, but in some cases new rocks are found, new wrecks have turned up.

I had some old admiralty charts, I still do in fact in the back of the chart bag, they are great as a historic log as you can still read many of the cruises me and my dad made in the late 80's.

While updating my current folio I thought I would see if I could update the old un's. The first problem is of course, as has been totally ignored, which does shock me from you Nigel as an ex-merch old man, the datum is pre WG84. Fine and dandy, but 99% of us do use GPS set to WG84.

The change in buoyage is just far too much to contemplate rubbing out and moving to be of navigational use. Also remember that unless you navigate using true north, this is also likely to give some problems as charts really age.

Although it is easy to flippantly state on the forum that rocks don't move, especially as you are considering your own area of sailing, with that local knowledge, yes you can use an old chart; But someone new to sailing who is hungry for free stuff as the bills mount, setting them off to sea with old-rocks-don't-move-charts is poor advice IMO. I stand by my first statement.
 
"The first problem is of course, as has been totally ignored, which does shock me from you Nigel as an ex-merch old man, the datum is pre WG84. Fine and dandy, but 99% of us do use GPS set to WG84." ....

It's actually because I am ex Merch that I feel I can get away with it !! And let's correct the WGS84 bit ... if you set GPS to this always - then you will find various charts not aligned to your GPS datum ... so that's a bit of a sweeping statement really.

WGS84 has been around for quite a while as well - and most cancelled charts / recent superceded would be of WGS84 where you may be sailing UK etc.

I did also say that it's good to have up to date for your area / where needed greater detail etc. and older can suffice for inbetween.
OK - maybe I should expand that ... Let's say I'm going from Chichester Harbour to Barfleur France. The only two charts I consider are well advised to be latest corrected current jobs are Chichester Harbour and the app's / harbour of Barfleur ... the rest can be older as until you start app's to Barfleur you have English Channel. Then of course you need to dodge the rocks that were there when Napoleon was contemplating Josephine.

/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Yes like many others in the Merch - I corrected and maintained massive chart folios with my Rotring pen and drawing instruments .... spoon handle with hole drilled for drawing small circles, worn out hacksaw blade to do cables etc. So am well aware of the importance of the matter ... but then I was draft often up to 70ft ..... just a tad more than my present 3ft ! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Going by those dates they're navigationally unsafe/dangerous to use on board.

I'd be surprised if they're still the current edition. They only good now for wrapping paper, draw lining, gaskets, kids drawing paper or to practise on.

Don't through them away do something useful with them but do not use them on board for navigation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I assume you would destroy my entire UK / North Sea folios collected over years when I was sea ... every cancelled chart relevant to my area was brought home ... as well as when duplicates found ... some of them are from 80's (actual print / edition could be 60's or earlier .....)

To condemn as you have done - IMHO ... no. Unsafe ? Not really in reality. As Searush said ... and I agree with him ... buoys / lights etc. may be in error - but major items as rocks etc. usually do not move that much.
IMHO charts that cover the harbour or where real detail is needed - get best you can ... for rest ... even my ancient antique collection would do ...

Oh - by the way .... old charts do make excellent lamp-shades ..... !!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I would stamp cancelled over every chart that has been withdrawn or superseded by a new edition. There is a reason why they usually are cancelled.

The amount the charts from the North Sea have changed over the years is umbeliveable. They average at least 5 -6 changes a week and are on the most corrected charts in the world.

If you'd trust your safety of an old chart over a new edition then that's purely your decision. But don't expect insurance companies to pay out as most nowadays will not if you do not have up to date charts on board.

The Chart datum has changed since the 80's so that even makes those charts out of date. As it's WGS 84 not what it was in the 80's. Which actually would move a major item i.e rocks like you said a heck of a lot.

But what's a few pounds for a new chart and keeping them up to date compared to hitting something in your yacht because your chart doesn't have the information on them.

Out of date and poorly corrected charts as I have seen is navigationally dangerous. Those who think it is not IMHO shouldn't be on the sea. That's just my opinion taken from experience.

If your still using Charts from the 60's to navigate then that's even worse!

There's a reason why the MCA and surveyors check vessels have up to date charts. If it was perfectly safe surely they wouldn't bother???
 
[ QUOTE ]
All charts and publications must be of the latest obtainable edition and, be kept up to date from the latest relevant obtainable notices to mariners and radio navigational warnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's according to the MCA and applies to all vessels both large and small. Must be a reason why they suggest that?
 
Actually - the reason most charts get cancelled and replaced is NOT because of major corrections and movement of significant objects - but because the overall amount of corrections to that chart makes it untidy !! (for want of a better word!). The HO keep charts going till the number of corrections reach an amount that is best served by reprinting and combining those corrections into a new print.

As to WGS84 ... I've already said that there are many areas around the world that are NOT WGS84 ... many areas around the world that are still served by old charts ...

Ok - so you quote MCA and Insurance Co's again ... Let's consider one of the biggest reasons charts were revised across the world ... You would claim more accuracy and corrections / changes etc. Wrong. In fact biggest factor that dictated replacement of charts was change from Fathoms to Metres ... Black & white to Colour ...

I really enjoy scaremongering and over-enthusiastic postings !!

I applaud your ideals to stay as current as possible ... I applaud your advise to others to get best possible. Don't get me wrong - I agree that up to date charts are best .. I choose based on my knowledge of my cruising areas etc. to pick and choose which charts I renew / carry. I'm sure I am not the only one ...

Considering also that I probably have large folios that others would love to have ... paper and electronic ... I think I am well covered ... The thread - I answred in terms of paper only ...

I have to say that my paper charts rarely see daylight now ... and those that do are usually folded into plastic envelopes for cockpit use to relevant sections ...

Maybe I should contact a Maritime Museum !!

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Oh nearly forgot ... you mention Surveyors ... Oh Dear another chestnut ... If it's a coded vessel - eg Charter / Commercial of course they will ...

If its' purely private use only - then you'd do well to remove them or slide away into locker ... as he is NOT required to check or comment on them. If he does then he's stepping outside of requirements. (UK I'm referring to ...)
I do run a Survey company or 3 ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
So you use North Sea charts which are in 80's and have 100's and 100's of correction added to them. That isnt' a wise thing. Especially when the amount of oil and gas rig platform changes are an everyday occurance on those charts.

And relying on Electronics isn't wise either. As technology isn't 100% reliable. Otherwise Paper charts wouldn't have to be carried by those as a requirement by MCA.

Hmm you say the biggest factor of change of charts around the world was black and white to colour and fathoms to metres.

I wouldn't say that to be honest no. Actually the biggest change to charts it the hydrographic office that supplies the information to the UKHO. Most of the charts are now reproductions of chart produced by that countries HO. They provide the information to UKHO who then in turn will reproduce the chart.

Yes they bring out new editions as one reason is too many corrections make an untidy chart. But when they are superseding the chart with two or more charts it's not the reason of untidyness that has caused that.

AS for scaremongering not at all. The wise man built his house on the rocks not on the sand. As I said if the person wishes to used out of date and canceled charts to navigate with on board. Then that's his/her own choice.

But from experience of having customers come back to me after saying the same thing as you after they've used out of date charts from nearly hitting something that wasn't on the chart then I can't be that wrong.

I mentioned surveyors. Yes because my clients around the world have them as you are quite correct they're either commercial or charter. Also the private vessels that are 45m or above also carry up to date charts are they still realise the risk their is of using electronics and not having up to date charts as back ups.

But even local yachtsman have fallen foul to their own local knowledge of their cruising area. One came in for electronic charts. When asked if he had a paper chart to cover himself. His reply was I've got an old one.

Well he came back the next day to buy a current as his plotter crashed it was foggy used his out of date chart and almost hit a buoy that had moved.

Just one example of the I don't need to keep up to date paper charts on board.

As for WGS 84 around the world that aren't WGS 84? Not many left to be honest. I know I deal with charts all over the world. keeping a stock of over 4000's charts of the world up to date regularly you tend to know what goes on with them.

I applaud the risk you take on using out of date charts especially when you agree with saying current is the best. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Like I said if it was safe to use out of date and cancelled charts just to save a few pennies why do MCA and insurance companies etc insist on them? Because their is a risk of an accident at sea maybe? Don't know that might be me. 12 years working in the Chart world in some form or another gives me some tiny bit of knowledge in the area.

I may not be a surveyor or run 3 in fact. But I do look after super yachts and ships navigational equipment, charts and publications as a business. And with a large group of clients with yachts ranging from small 40ft and below to large super yachts of 45m and above. This is not a boast just trying to show I'm not a keyboard warrior who knows nothing of which he speaks

My advice surely can't be that far wrong. Otherwise surely they'd use out of date charts as it must be safe for them to do so. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Well I've said my piece it's always good to have these day in day out discussions. At least people see the two sides of the discussion. After that it's purely up to them!
 
Thats all good and well, and I agree entirely with the sentiment..... however, the reality is somewhat different in the context of your statement:

[ QUOTE ]
just to save a few pennies

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, I think a good chunk of the problem is that is ISNT just a few pennies is it?

To maintain a decent portfolio of charts for a reasonable sized cruising area is really really expensive, and for those off on travels, its prohibitively expensive...

IMHO, Admiralty are taking the piss with the prices they charge..... strange how the Americans can get electronic copies for free isn't it?
 
We are not actually on different sides of the fence ... we are actually on same side .... if you read carefully what I typed.

What I am against is the generalisation of MCA ... Surveyors reports .... Insurnace Co. stuff that in fact is not applied to most small boats - particularly when private and non-charter / commercial.
I cannot off-hand think of one instance where a chart being out of date has been held up to null and void a claim (UK I'm talking now ...) Other countries - yes ... as some do require even small private boats to carry some form of charting to cover their useage area.

I also have to admit that I got sick of tracings and corrections when at sea ... especially when many were cancelled later and reverted back to original positions / data !!

As already said - I do have recent paper coverage of areas relevant to harbours etc. I frequent when back in UK ... but that's by the by now as my boat is now out in Latvia ... so I crew for others now. It's their job to have what they feel is necessary.

I also am of opinion that many post when they don't actually venture out of their safe zones ... known sea areas ...

The world of chartuing is undergoing evolution and it is well known that multiple ECS systems are taking over and paper charts being consigned to history ... I visit many ships in my biz and I like to chat with the Masters and Nav officers (2nd Mates usually) ... one of the biggest developments is the auto download system via sat link of electronic ECS charts corrections / uodates .... negating the need for 2nd mate to spend so many hours hunched over chart drawing stuff.
So even the argument about Electronic charting being out of date is fast becoming a thing of the past - one day it will hit the pleasure boater ... and then we will all enjoy current plotter charting ...


Only problem I have - is the habit of running aground on Ryde Sands !! No matter that I know the boundaries of them ... have sailed round them for years - I still have "touches" with them - usually when I'm showing others entrance to Ryde Marina !!

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
If you have electronics on board which nowadays most do then you pretty much are covered with detailed charts of your cruising area.

If this is the case then really all you need are a few back up charts just incase of technology failing which does happen on more than one occasion.

Yes paper charts aren't cheap. BUt when you buy the same chart abroad and pay tax on them it isn't any cheaper. Paper and publications over here are tax free for those who didn't know.

But it's like most things yachting is an expensive past time. If you can't afford to be safe then don't have a yacht. That is what I was always told by my old boss at last company and what he was told himself when he started out.

If your yacht cost you as an example 30,000 and you hit a buoy unmarked on your out of date chart. Have the unfortunate risk of either sinking or seriously damaging. Your insurance company turns round and says sorry not paying out because you used out of date charts. Surely you'd be better off just paying a few more pounds to use up to date charts be it a full set or electronic with just a few back ups?

I know how much it costs to keep a cruising area up to date. My local clients rather spend £50 to get them updated then to have to keep spending a fortune on new charts and only replace them when needed than to take the risk of loosing a massive fortune because of an accident caused but not spending a few more pounds

It's personal preference.

Americans give out free copies of electronic charts yes but the paper charts aren't free and if I'm aware they don't just use the free charts over there they use paper as well
 
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