France - Cat C Boats Illegal....

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Scubadoo

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I was just reading an article about channel crossing in the May MBM, I was surprised to read that a Cat C graded boat is illegal if more than 6miles from the French coast. Suggesting a UK boater could have issues if crossing the channel.

Is this something that is generally known/ignored, I'm sure there are many Cat C boats visiting France from the UK.
 
Scubadoo said:
I was just reading an article about channel crossing in the May MBM, I was surprised to read that a Cat C graded boat is illegal if more than 6miles from the French coast. Suggesting a UK boater could have issues if crossing the channel.

Is this something that is generally known/ignored, I'm sure there are many Cat C boats visiting France from the UK.
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Frank Dye done the north sea in a wayfarer :D
 
I noticed that.I have a cat c and wanted to do the canals.Not sure if it is legal ( from the french point of view)to arrive from UK now.
 
Scubadoo said:
I was just reading an article about channel crossing in the May MBM, I was surprised to read that a Cat C graded boat is illegal if more than 6miles from the French coast. Suggesting a UK boater could have issues if crossing the channel.

Is this something that is generally known/ignored, I'm sure there are many Cat C boats visiting France from the UK.
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Sounds like the same piece of misinformation published in YM this month. It is true that French boats (along with boats registered in many other countries such as Portugal, Spain and Italy) are limited in their use by their category. However, this does not apply to UK registered yachts, and untill these articles were published there has never been any suggestion that the French authorities would impose their requirements on visiting British yachts. It is certainly not the experience of the hundreds who visit France each year - the authorities are only interested in registration papers and passports, although they may also ask to see other things such as VHF licence.

Ther have been reports, however, that the Portuguese navy is inspecting British yachts against their category requirements, but so far nobody seems to have been forced to comply.

This is a grey area of international maritime law and practice. You can get a reasonable summary of what is believed to be the current situation from the RYA site under the heading of International Law of the Sea.

You will find threads on this subject on both Scuttlebut and Liveaboard, although they don't add much to the above.

I have written to both YM and the RYA seeking clarification, because if what these mag articles are saying is correct (and I don't think for one minute they are!) it will have a major impact on anybody taking their boat abroad.
 
What would they be able to do with a boat built before the RCD was even a fantasy in the mind of a dirigiste politician/bureaucrat? There must be a pretty fair number of these older boats around unless someone has created a lookup table whereby all Nelsons are Cat A, all P35s are nominally cat B, all Freemans cat C unless under 8m loa where they become D and...I suspect the table does not exist:-)*

I'd be very interested in knowing if it does, or even as an approximation.

*I made all this up!
 
Scubadoo said:
I was just reading an article about channel crossing in the May MBM, I was surprised to read that a Cat C graded boat is illegal if more than 6miles from the French coast. Suggesting a UK boater could have issues if crossing the channel.

Is this something that is generally known/ignored, I'm sure there are many Cat C boats visiting France from the UK.
Click to expand...

I think you may have misread it. The way that I read it is that French boats are not allowed to cross the Channel in Cat C boats and they would get into trouble if they had to be rescued in conditions that exceeded their RCD category.

The next sentence starts: "By Contrast, British law won't stop you crossing the Western approaches on a pedalo"

Admittedly, it could have been written more clearly.
 
Andrew_Fanner said:
What would they be able to do with a boat built before the RCD was even a fantasy in the mind of a dirigiste politician/bureaucrat? There must be a pretty fair number of these older boats around unless someone has created a lookup table whereby all Nelsons are Cat A, all P35s are nominally cat B, all Freemans cat C unless under 8m loa where they become D and...I suspect the table does not exist:-)*

I'd be very interested in knowing if it does, or even as an approximation.

*I made all this up!
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That would be one of the major barriers to introducing categorisation in the UK. Every single boat would need to be registered, inspected and placed into a category. In France the categorisation already existed before the RCD based on size and equipment required. All boats in France are registered and categorised. Clearly the introduction of the RCD gave them a formal means for doing it for new boats.

In other countries, Spain and Portugal for example, not only are boats categorised, but are compulsorily inspected on a regular basis (at the owner's cost). In Italy you also need a categorised licence to use your boat, based on type and range of usage.

We don't appreciate how lucky we are in this country in respect of interfering regulations.
 
It might not be illegal but do you think Insurers would be happy for a boat to cross the channel outside its designed specification limits ?

I expect a clause will get added in the small print soon to the effect the vessel must not be deliberately used outside its intended design.
 
DAKA said:
It might not be illegal but do you think Insurers would be happy for a boat to cross the channel outside its designed specification limits ?

I expect a clause will get added in the small print soon to the effect the vessel must not be deliberately used outside its intended design.
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I specifically asked this question of a couple of the big insurers a few years ago and the answer then was that they did not consider the RCD category when putting a boat on cover, or when dealing with a claim.
 
Scubadoo said:
I was just reading an article about channel crossing in the May MBM, I was surprised to read that a Cat C graded boat is illegal if more than 6miles from the French coast. Suggesting a UK boater could have issues if crossing the channel.

Is this something that is generally known/ignored, I'm sure there are many Cat C boats visiting France from the UK.
Click to expand...

It gets even more confusing !!!!!!! found this on web. Clear as mud !

The category is all to do with its use if its used for commercial purposes.

"CAT C": means a passenger ship engaged on domestic voyages in sea areas where the probability of exceeding 2.5m significant wave height is smaller than 10% over a one-year period for all-year round operation, or over a specific restricted period of the year for operation exclusively in such period (e.g. summer period operation), in the course of which it is at no time more than 15 miles from a place of refuge, nor more than 5 miles from the line of the coast, where shipwrecked persons can land, corresponding to the medium tide height.
 
neale said:
I specifically asked this question of a couple of the big insurers a few years ago and the answer then was that they did not consider the RCD category when putting a boat on cover, or when dealing with a claim.
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Thats good news :)

I suppose one will have to sink before they re look at it.

Perhaps cat C owners should request acknowledgement in writing just to be on the safe side.
 
The RCD is nothing to do with the way you can use a boat. It was introduced to provide common construction standards throughout EU/EEA so that builders would not need to meet varying local standards. Boats can then get a CE mark showing that they meet the standard. Inevitably to reflect the huge variety of boats, the standards need to vary according to the type of boat. The system chosen was 4 categories, each of which is based on different usage conditions and lay down minimum design parameters and basic construction standards for each. Broadly they reflect escalating severity of conditions under which the boat is expected to operate, from inland waterways to ocean going.

In the UK the categories are used for nothing else than certifying new (and imported) boats. However there is a system of categorisation set up by the MCA which sets the standards for boats that are used commercially, for example charter boats. These are based on area and type of operation and are somewhat similar to the mandatory equipment criteria used for example in France. However, none of this applies to UK private boats under 24m.

As I pointed out above, many other countries have always had categorisation with varying levels of equipment and areas of operation, based on their own assessments. Clearly the introduction of RCD categorie makes it easier for them to define the categories against a standard if they want to.

As we all know there are no restrictions in the UK on how you use your boat, nor any mandatory safety, equipment or skippering requirements. Nor is there any mandatory registration, taxes, inspections or even insurance requirements. It has been accepted for years that most of these conditions exist for UK flagged vessels when visiting other countries, although some, for example insurance may be required.

So, clearly it is very important that the issue is clarified as the impact could be devastating for many people.
 
DAKA said:
It might not be illegal but do you think Insurers would be happy for a boat to cross the channel outside its designed specification limits ?

I expect a clause will get added in the small print soon to the effect the vessel must not be deliberately used outside its intended design.
Click to expand...

I have come across similar before, what I do is call the insurer and get it endorsed on your policy, I've had not issues in others areas of cruising.
 
neale said:
I think you may have misread it. The way that I read it is that French boats are not allowed to cross the Channel in Cat C boats and they would get into trouble if they had to be rescued in conditions that exceeded their RCD category.

The next sentence starts: "By Contrast, British law won't stop you crossing the Western approaches on a pedalo"

Admittedly, it could have been written more clearly.
Click to expand...

I may have misread it, just had a look again but to be honest, it isn't clear.
 
DAKA said:
Thats good news :)

I suppose one will have to sink before they re look at it.

Perhaps cat C owners should request acknowledgement in writing just to be on the safe side.
Click to expand...

Don't think there has been any suggestion so far by insurers that they would use categories as a limiting factor. They already define your cruising grounds anyway, and will impose limits if they think it appropriate in relation to the risk they are assuming. For example they usually place restrictions on crossing the Bay of Biscay, or going further east in the Med than around Cyprus. The normal cruising range (at least for raggies - don't know about MOBOs) is UK coastal waters and channel with the Elbe as eastern limit and Brest as west. Extensions either side of that are normally no problem on request - my boat had Med plus Atlantic coast plus UK before I brought it back here.

The RCD has been in since 1998 which perhaps means two things. Firstly the majority of the boats in the UK were not built to an RCD category and secondly if there was an intention to use it, then it would have come up already - which I don't think has happened.
 
Insurers would find it hard to enforce soemthing based on what a boat was designed for: that may not have been recorded in a meaningful way.

"Sealine S29, designed to go fast, pull the chicks and not leave you destitute if you were already pretty comfortably off and single."
 
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